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D&D 5E First Session of HotDQ - WOW, what a meatgrinder

Read the OP and have to agree from a player's perspective. We were brutalized right from the get go. By the second encounter in we had two character deaths in a party of five. Started again with two freshly rolled characters to replace the deaders and played maybe five more encounters. Every encounter was scary. In every encounter at least one character went down. The only thing that has saved us, so far, has been sleep spells from the two casters. As it stands right now we, the players, all assume we're going to be TPK'd before we reach whatever goal is in store.

The biggest problem so far has been the kobolds, with their pack tactics, +4 to hit, and 1d4+2 damage from a CR 1/8 creature. They're ganging up and crushing us. The ability to gain advantage through pack tactics on 1st level characters with 8-12 hit points is hilarious.

Now our DM is new to 5e and going by the book as far as I know, i.e. rolling for number of creatures encountered, etc.. And we haven't seen a healing potion at all. So, maybe the DM could have worked a little more on the encounter difficulty but I believe he was relying on the adventure as written to guide him.
 

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I agree that death is and should be part of the D&D gaming experience. However, 'Greenest in Flames' is an awful introduction for new players to the game (likely in an Encounters setting). The entire episode is a meat-grinder (numerous unbalanced encounters with no resting), it has an encounter with a blue dragon that must be played in an illogical way in order to not kill the entire party, and an encounter with a half-dragon that cannot be won and might possibly result in a characters death. If it was my first time playing a RPG game I would not be impressed.
Once again, though, I think people should more closely read the encounters in the first episode. As was mentioned earlier, there is nothing requiring the PC's to fight every group, that is entirely the player's choice. Another thing is that the challenge against the dragon happens when it is already in combat with the NPC defenders. Why would it suddenly turn and attack the PC's just because they entered the fray? I had the dragon do one pass when the PC's came out to the fight in order to showcase the dragon's lethality, as the module states, rolled the d6 and d4 for the NPC tally to start, and then said the dragon rises up out of range while everyone below prepares for the next fly-by attack. That's when the PC's had their chance to attack and they did well over the required amount of damage to scare him off. I feel I ran it how it was written and intended so at what point would the dragon have reason to target the PC's?
 

Read the OP and have to agree from a player's perspective. We were brutalized right from the get go. By the second encounter in we had two character deaths in a party of five. Started again with two freshly rolled characters to replace the deaders and played maybe five more encounters. Every encounter was scary. In every encounter at least one character went down. The only thing that has saved us, so far, has been sleep spells from the two casters. As it stands right now we, the players, all assume we're going to be TPK'd before we reach whatever goal is in store.

The biggest problem so far has been the kobolds, with their pack tactics, +4 to hit, and 1d4+2 damage from a CR 1/8 creature. They're ganging up and crushing us. The ability to gain advantage through pack tactics on 1st level characters with 8-12 hit points is hilarious.

Now our DM is new to 5e and going by the book as far as I know, i.e. rolling for number of creatures encountered, etc.. And we haven't seen a healing potion at all. So, maybe the DM could have worked a little more on the encounter difficulty but I believe he was relying on the adventure as written to guide him.

Have your party Wizard and/or Sorc prepare/select Burning Hands/Color Spray/Sleep or even Grease.
 

Character death is part of the D&D gaming experience. This notion that PC's should survive everything thrown at them is a recent addition to gaming culture, born of the trend towards "balanced" mechanics and a rule for everything which, I believe, began with 2e Powers & Options and the various splatbooks and was codified with 3e and then solidified into the gaming paradigm by Pathfinder.

So "recent" started in the early to mid 90s? Meaning it has now existed for longer than that lost golden age of rolling a new character every other session? Seems like that trend might stick around a while. ;)

Anyway, an unwinnable fight is fine, but you'll notice that when you lose to the unbeatable boss in Mega Man or whatever, the game goes into cutscene mode and you don't actually die. Seems like they could have tweaked this dude's attacks to make instant kills less frequent or even impossible. Maybe even some DM guidance to that effect. It's one thing to show the pcs that the world is dangerous, but it's another to create a world where brave and noble characters all get killed off.
 

So "recent" started in the early to mid 90s? Meaning it has now existed for longer than that lost golden age of rolling a new character every other session? Seems like that trend might stick around a while. ;)
As I said. Started then, progressed, and then was made significant by the time Pathfinder came to be. So recent is referring to the fact that it only progressed to the point of dominance when Pathfinder became prominent.

Have your party Wizard and/or Sorc prepare/select Burning Hands/Color Spray/Sleep or even Grease.
Yeup. Had a dragon sorcerer use burning hands to great effect as well as a dragonborn that used a breath weapon and wiped out the kobolds in quick order. Even the ones that saved against the spells died because the damage halved was still enough to kill them. Their AC and hit points are low enough that one attack usually killed them off so they tended to drop very quickly.
 

Throwing in an unbeatable encounter provides and better incentive than any other I have known as a player for self-advancement: the desire for revenge. It doesn't matter how small Cyanwrath figures into the written adventure; to the adventurers, dealing justice to him has become a raison d'etre.
 

Once again, though, I think people should more closely read the encounters in the first episode. As was mentioned earlier, there is nothing requiring the PC's to fight every group, that is entirely the player's choice.

I'm not sure what people are missing :confused:. The only time when the book explicitly states that players can avoid fighting an enemy encounter is during Seek the Keep: "Unless characters interfere, the kobolds assume the characters are cultists and ignore them to concentrate on killing the woman first, her family second." Also: "To reach the keep, the characters must make it past three groups of raiders...Characters can fight these enemies, sneak past them, retreat to avoid them entirely, or try something clever such as bluffing."

In regard to the random encounters when players leave the keep, I take this to mean that if they fail two stealth checks that means they were noticed by the enemy and must bluff or enter combat (they cannot sneak past them because they have already failed the checks): "If characters use cover and stealth to avoid encounters, have each character attempt a DC 10 Dexterity(Stealth) check. For every two individual checks that fail, the characters have one encounter on the way to their destination."

Players are forced into combat in the 'Old Tunnel', 'The Sally Port', 'Dragon Attack', 'Save the Mill', 'Sanctuary', and 'Half-Dragon Champion'. If they are going to avoid combat in those missions the players have to be pretty creative, the DM has to play it differently than written, or the party just has to sit the entire thing out. At least three of those have multiple combat encounters. Also each time players leave the old tunnel there is a chance that they are discovered and attacked outright.

There are six hours (9 PM to 4 AM) in this chapter. There are six ‘missions’ that are assumed to take one hour each (not including ‘Half-Dragon Champion’). If players are going to complete all the missions there is absolutely no time to take a one hour short rest. Given the situation of the scenario (village being pillaged) it also seems incredibly unlikely that any ‘good’ aligned characters would rest for an hour while innocent villagers are being killed.

Please explain to me, what am I missing? It seems like a hell of a lot of forced combat encounters, many of them being ‘hard’ to ‘deadly’, with not even enough time for a short rest to break them up.

Thank Dog said:
Another thing is that the challenge against the dragon happens when it is already in combat with the NPC defenders. Why would it suddenly turn and attack the PC's just because they entered the fray? I had the dragon do one pass when the PC's came out to the fight in order to showcase the dragon's lethality, as the module states, rolled the d6 and d4 for the NPC tally to start, and then said the dragon rises up out of range while everyone below prepares for the next fly-by attack. That's when the PC's had their chance to attack and they did well over the required amount of damage to scare him off. I feel I ran it how it was written and intended so at what point would the dragon have reason to target the PC's?

Lennithon has every reason to attack the players once he notices them because he was ordered to: "Frulam Mondath orders the attack, knowing that the adventurers are in the keep at the time." Also the way it was written the players are the only ones that can do damage to him, so once they do damage, why would he not turn his attention to them? Yes, it does say that "Lennithon doesn’t consider this to be its fight, and it isn’t keen on tangling with adventurers for another’s benefit." However this doesn't make any sense to me. Why is he so disinterested in this fight and why would he obey orders if he doesn't want to tangle with the adventurers?

It even says in the book “The dragon doesn’t target the adventures at first,” as well as “Bear in mind that the dragon’s breath weapon will kill a 1st-level character out-right, so be sure to demonstrate its destructive power to the players before turning the dragon against the party.” Both of these are an indication to me that the players are viable targets for the dragon to attack once they draw his attention. I’m glad that your PCs were able to damage the dragon enough that he would fly off in one turn. However not all groups are that fortunate and must deal with the dragon as he flies back for another attack. In that case how would you have logically had the dragon attack not the players but the group of soldiers doing “ineffective against Lennithon” without it being implausible?
 

Well for a start you don't have to grind them through every encounter if they aren't coping, particularly if they are charging into every encounter. They won't last.
My opinion is that they are meant to feel the threat of being heroes. That any encounter can kill you if you aren't careful. So be careful. Use all your talents not just spells and weapons. Intimidate and bluff like mad. Draw them into ambushes and never let the kobolds gang up, particularly if they do it to you once.
At the end, the characters step forward to save a member of the guard being slaughtered by Cyanwrath. It's what heroes do. It also gives an edge to a later encounter, which in my book is good design. It turns an encounter into a villain, it invests the characters.
 

We played it. We barely made it
We lost a PC who actively taunted the dragon. We rather liked the half dragon encounter. We were genuinely scared. I loved it.
 

While 'clever play' or bringing your A-game or feeling challenged for a change may all be great for longtime players bored with late-edition-power-creep-syndrome, for brand-new-to-the-hobby players, a more forgiving scenario would have been preferable.

IDK, maybe Encounters shouldn't be billed as a beginners' or a casual play program, but as AL, with something else taking it's place? Or maybe it should get completely different adventures? Or, perhaps, Encounters-usable adventures could have a 'training wheels' setting for DMs (especially /new/ DMs who won't intuitively know to 'dial it down') to use with new/casual players who are looking to learn the system or have some fun rather than hit the black-diamond slopes.
 

Into the Woods

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