D&D 4E first time dm creating 4e world, help pls?
- Thread starter Flipguarder
- Start date
Flipguarder
First Post
Pierson_Lowgal said:
At this point, even if I wanted to change the prison setup, I probably wouldn't. It works too well with the plot. Just because something is overused, doesn't make it unuseful. Only the nerdiest of nerds would complain about that imho.
The first ten levels (aka 30 sessions) will be spent dealing with just that. As epic as I came off, the epicness doesn't come into play until level 11 at the earliest, based on my "plan"
Lackhand said:
They meet one god at level 11. they don't even know what the artifact is until then. they will probably meet one more god at level 18 or so, after that they'll be epic and it's more understandable.
Lackhand said:
noobguarder doesn't understand the difference.
Lackhand said:
said in love not in anger
#1 artifact does nothing save preventing insanity for pcs (it does more, but only for dieties)
#2 they don't even KNOW what it really is until paragon tier
#3 the idea for a plot device being overused only matters for people who have played more than 4 or 5 campaigns. plus my players wont care. We're being railroaded all over the place. still having fun.
#4 "the plot I want them to follow" it seems as dm I make the plot. If not... more on this later
#5 its one item. Also Im giving them a "book of lies" but that is more just for fun role-playing than useful for anything.
CSK said:
I LOVE this idea,thank you SO much.
Cailte said:
Well, one of my requirements for the Characters is good or good-bent at the least, no evil or evil wanna-bes
But say some jackass player decides they wanna change alignment or the whole group does mid-campaign.
that would mean that they wish for the destruction of the multiiverse. But I would let them. they would just switch sides and give the artifact to pandorym. probably fighting bahumet or some other god at endgame. Id also have to change some instances *tee-hee*
This is what I see happening without some sort of plot device like the cube (Which everyone seems to be against at this point.)
Me: You guys are in a city, what do you wanna do.
P: go to the bar
Me: ok you guys go the bar
bar room stuff, nothing exiciting happens.
me: What do you want to do now.
p: go to another town?
Without a plot its just these guys going into other races homes (aka dungeons) and wreckin up the place for no reason.
I understand you aren't against plot, but this is what I've heard
cube=bad
some one telling them what to do=bad
forcing the characters to be together in the beginning=bad
I think it would be more railroading if I said that "trolls are attacking the village you are in, do you wanna kill them?" I don't want to give them a situation where I KNOW what they're gonna do. I want to give them a world, a mystery, and a problem. Then just let them loose on it. I would feel more forced if I was in a situation like this "your mom is missing, *gather information check of some sort* people are saying that she left town, abandoned her home and went to that ominous castle over there"
I feel like I have three choices
1. no forced interaction with any NPCS, no mysterious item, characters just meet and fight some random enemy. afterwards they go "what now?" rinse, repeat, ergo no plot.
2. my plan, or some other involving mystery and a series of clues and tips to follow the rabbit trail.
3. some series of obvious and insipid plots involving random dangers to the values/persons/or loved ones of the PCs using character emotion to railroad instead of world circumstances.
If I want a cohesive long-term plot, I think I have to introduce the right npcs, lay the right crumbs not just let the characters explore the world killing bad guys willy-nilly without solving any real problems.
dm: hey guys, go to that castle.
group: uhh... why?
dm: YOU DARE QUESTION THE DUNGEON MASTER!!!!!!
group: yes.. yes we do.
dm: there's just a princess or something in there. you wanna save her right?
group: *gets up and repeatedly crotch-kicks dm"
-or-
dm:hey redgar, your mom, who you love more than anything, has been captured by mind-flayers, who will kill her than eat her brain. They are in that castle over there.
Redgar: I wanna go to the castle.
dm: Damn straight, fish.
-or- my plan
Dm: you guys find this cube, it seems to exude happiness
players: what does it do
dm: thats the question isn't it, where do you guys wanna go
players: where can we go?
dm: the cardinal directions are north south east and west, but I allow variations.
players: wheres the nearest town.
dm: *knowledge local check of some sort succeeds and I reply instantly because I have all geography mapped out* a port city called strom is to the s-se about 2 days walk
I don't mean to get heated, but one of my pet peeves is when someone offers a problem without any solution. I really do appreciate all this, and I make too many jokes
Final question, is it possible to create a fun, epic-story game, that includes a cohesive plot throughout the campaign with few side-quests? because bottom line, thats what I wanna do.
*hugs Lackhand*
thanks everyone.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Flipguarder said:
Yes, it is, and you seem to be going about it the right way as far as I can tell.
The only thing you need to be aware of is that when you make plans like "The players don't know what the cube is until level 11" you probably need to consider what happens if the players work it out before then.
Or worse, what happens if they decide to throw the Cube away? that's the kind of thing that can rapidly derail a plot, even a good one like yours.
Be wary of "The players HAVE to do this" or "The players WON'T know this until..." because you need to be aware that a lot of players will end up not doing it. Not because they're horrible players, but just because, well, they're people and they're unpredictable.
You'll only be railroading them (as I understand the term) if, for example, they throw the Cube away and it magically reappears in their possession a day later.
Since somewhere you basically said your group has fun with having clearly defined goals and working within the limits, here is one suggested way:
Take your world, make the prison <START HERE>, then "draw" out a "dungeon" using the locations, events, and NPC's to fill out the "dungeon". Now, you have to make sure that any given "room" has a clue to go to another room. And that the first four plot points are all basically equal (maybe they are really just one big clue that you need to combine to understand, doesn't matter order). That way no matter which way the PC's go they will be headed towards a plot point. (This is a gentle railroad) Now, here's the "fun" part. If the PC's continue on a path "away" from any/all rooms (plot points) then you have your type "b" side quests (these are things that seemingly have no bearing on the campaign (and really don't) but will have some sort of reference to either something the PC's have already seen/done or reinforce an earlier "clue" to show them a path back to the main plot.
(Type "a" side quests are one's which don't interact directly with the main story, but have benefits which will make it easier)
As far as the anti-cube going on, its mainly because as a DM your campaign cannot hinge on any single item, event, or character, period. What if the PC's sell it to the local ruler's "adivisor"? Are these "good" PC's going to steal it back if he refuses to sell it back to them? What if they simple throw it into the sea? What if they LIKE being insane? If the campaign cannot progress without it, then something is wrong. Other things like "time stressed" campaigns are "bad" too, they make great movies, and great adventures, but horrible campaigns.
Look it at this way, worst thing happens is your players are uncooperative or not levelling to your liking you just TPK them, which is always fun.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
You get 1 XP each session. Every 4 XP = 1 level. Done.Flipguarder said:
ObsidianCrane
First Post
Hmm first things first the "PCs are good" rarely works in my experience. Most players play a "vaguely good guy", you'll see a lot more Han Solo than you will Luke Skywalker for example.
Motivating the PCs into adventuring is always a challenging thing, and there are several ways to do it, some are good, and some work with the right players, few are ever just plain bad.
The plot is best laid out to the PCs in stages, little bits that over time tie together to make a bigger picture. Babylon 5 used to have a lot of episodes where it seemed that nothing of note happened, but by the time you got to the end of a season (or more) you could see the bigger picture taking shape.
You can treat the campaign kind of like a TV series, each Season would be 26 sessions ( half a year of weekly play, a year of fortnightly play) and correspond to a Tier of play.
Heroic Tier - Season 1 - it introduces the characters, they learn about the world and their role in it. For your campaign they might start encountering more strange things in the day to day operation of doing other adventures. Adventures don't have to be drawn from the main plot in an obvious way to the players, but should regularly drop clues that there is a bigger picture. The season should end with a major event to let the players know they are in a new ball park - eg the Red Moon appears in the sky followed by an orgy of violence as people act on fears and dark desires. 26 Sessions is probably 8 or 9 adventures, if they are not focussed on the dungeon crawl mentality. That's still advancing slightly faster than a level an adventure.
Paragon Tier - Season 2 - The players now know their world and have learnt that the BBEG is really a BBEG. They have the evidence of the first season that was sprinkled through it tied together to see a clear threat. They spend this Season learning about the BBEG, and finding a way to stop the BBEG. Most of the Adventures will be obviously plot focused, with a few that will likely pay off in season 3 - the ones where you meet important allies and so on. This is the Season where the PCs find out how to kill the BBEG and they race to get that tool before the BBEG can stop them destroy it etc.
Epic Tier - Season 3 - if you have watched Babylon 5 this is season 4. The season in which everything is tied up and the Heroes finally begin to act directly against the BBEG. They will help their shattered Pantheon form an alliance, they will fight and kill one of the BBEG's powerful minions and so on. Until at the end the PCs finally confront the BBEG and are directly involved (with their God Allies) in defeating the BBEG.
If the Hero Tier part of the Campaign works well, the other two will be much easier to mastermind because the PCs will largely want to follow the plot.
Now lots of people have given advice on how to set up a campaign, and or adventure but there are some things you can be sure about; Players will do bizzare and unexpected things!
"You do what!!"
Will become an all to familiar thing
It often follows statements like "I shoot him" or "I stab him" and they will probably be the least difficult things a Player will want to do that will mess up your plans. (I regularly put DMs through the pain of entirely redirecting their module or even campaign with simple innocent IC and appropriate actions.) So the more flexible your plans the easier it is to accomodate players doing bizzare things that throw you a curveball.
You might plot out the Adventures as a series of statements and goals leaving the details a little vague until you come to planning that particular session. Then you might have to plan 2 or 3 expected paths through the adventure for the session that let you achieve your goals while letting the Players think they controlled what they were doing.
That's probably the hardest thing - convincing the players they are controlling things all the while having them do what you wanted.
Motivating the PCs into adventuring is always a challenging thing, and there are several ways to do it, some are good, and some work with the right players, few are ever just plain bad.
The plot is best laid out to the PCs in stages, little bits that over time tie together to make a bigger picture. Babylon 5 used to have a lot of episodes where it seemed that nothing of note happened, but by the time you got to the end of a season (or more) you could see the bigger picture taking shape.
You can treat the campaign kind of like a TV series, each Season would be 26 sessions ( half a year of weekly play, a year of fortnightly play) and correspond to a Tier of play.
Heroic Tier - Season 1 - it introduces the characters, they learn about the world and their role in it. For your campaign they might start encountering more strange things in the day to day operation of doing other adventures. Adventures don't have to be drawn from the main plot in an obvious way to the players, but should regularly drop clues that there is a bigger picture. The season should end with a major event to let the players know they are in a new ball park - eg the Red Moon appears in the sky followed by an orgy of violence as people act on fears and dark desires. 26 Sessions is probably 8 or 9 adventures, if they are not focussed on the dungeon crawl mentality. That's still advancing slightly faster than a level an adventure.
Paragon Tier - Season 2 - The players now know their world and have learnt that the BBEG is really a BBEG. They have the evidence of the first season that was sprinkled through it tied together to see a clear threat. They spend this Season learning about the BBEG, and finding a way to stop the BBEG. Most of the Adventures will be obviously plot focused, with a few that will likely pay off in season 3 - the ones where you meet important allies and so on. This is the Season where the PCs find out how to kill the BBEG and they race to get that tool before the BBEG can stop them destroy it etc.
Epic Tier - Season 3 - if you have watched Babylon 5 this is season 4. The season in which everything is tied up and the Heroes finally begin to act directly against the BBEG. They will help their shattered Pantheon form an alliance, they will fight and kill one of the BBEG's powerful minions and so on. Until at the end the PCs finally confront the BBEG and are directly involved (with their God Allies) in defeating the BBEG.
If the Hero Tier part of the Campaign works well, the other two will be much easier to mastermind because the PCs will largely want to follow the plot.
Now lots of people have given advice on how to set up a campaign, and or adventure but there are some things you can be sure about; Players will do bizzare and unexpected things!
"You do what!!"
Will become an all to familiar thing
It often follows statements like "I shoot him" or "I stab him" and they will probably be the least difficult things a Player will want to do that will mess up your plans. (I regularly put DMs through the pain of entirely redirecting their module or even campaign with simple innocent IC and appropriate actions.) So the more flexible your plans the easier it is to accomodate players doing bizzare things that throw you a curveball.
You might plot out the Adventures as a series of statements and goals leaving the details a little vague until you come to planning that particular session. Then you might have to plan 2 or 3 expected paths through the adventure for the session that let you achieve your goals while letting the Players think they controlled what they were doing.
That's probably the hardest thing - convincing the players they are controlling things all the while having them do what you wanted.
Flipguarder
First Post
this just in: opinions can differ.
Hey, did han solo take a lightsaber and just give it to vader? Han solo will work for this adventure.
This comment(and others like it) will be the most intently listen to for my plot. I will change all of those statements in my campaign story to :Figure something the heck out if they don't do "this"
My Players would probably find this more funny than frustrating.
I think the hardest part of asking advice from everyone, is that I know the players. I know what they want, and it's impossible to please every type of player in one campaign. Our attitudes mesh.
Kenny the guy I am most worried about is the kind of player that would say, "I wanna eat the cube." but here's why I dont just tell him the cube is dangerous to mortals and kill him: he understands the game.
and I now know that the players "like" to be railroaded, with the possible exception for sam, the current DM. He's railroading us like nobody's business. But we understand he's got a story he wants to tell and thats what happens when you screw with it.
in our currant game:
Sam: the path across is blocked by a wave of fire 10ft thick and spanning the bridge. a trail to the bottom looks safe. (or something vaguely like this scenario)
Jon: I wanna go through the fire.
Sam: really?
Jon: yeah, I got fire resistance, I bet there's a save involved, I got healing and good saves. I wanna try it.
Sam: you take 5d6 damage half-divine half fire, no save. *after exiting the fire* the ceiling starts to come loose, it blocks the path forward
Jon: I wanna climb over it
sam: ok, but first make a reflex save
Jon: result 22
sam: *sighs* another one
Jon result 18
sam: another one (no explanation given)
Jon: result 12
Sam: ok, now one more
Jon: result 17
Sam: *sighs again* ok and a climb check
jon: result 4
Sam: Ah ok, you fall off the bridge take 4d6 damage
Jon: I knew something was telling me not to go through the fire wall.
Pretty much in our campaign, its known that there is a correct, or at most 3 or 4 correct paths. Diverting from these will result in pain and will ultimately be futile.
For example, if they throw the cube away, it comes back the next day, and some random PC has a negative effect on them for few hours (which, believe it or not, actually makes sense with my storyline)
bottom line, i see that railroading is only bad if the group deems it bad.
Cailte said:
Hey, did han solo take a lightsaber and just give it to vader? Han solo will work for this adventure.
Tallarn said:
This comment(and others like it) will be the most intently listen to for my plot. I will change all of those statements in my campaign story to :Figure something the heck out if they don't do "this"
Tallarn said:
My Players would probably find this more funny than frustrating.
I think the hardest part of asking advice from everyone, is that I know the players. I know what they want, and it's impossible to please every type of player in one campaign. Our attitudes mesh.
Kenny the guy I am most worried about is the kind of player that would say, "I wanna eat the cube." but here's why I dont just tell him the cube is dangerous to mortals and kill him: he understands the game.
and I now know that the players "like" to be railroaded, with the possible exception for sam, the current DM. He's railroading us like nobody's business. But we understand he's got a story he wants to tell and thats what happens when you screw with it.
in our currant game:
Sam: the path across is blocked by a wave of fire 10ft thick and spanning the bridge. a trail to the bottom looks safe. (or something vaguely like this scenario)
Jon: I wanna go through the fire.
Sam: really?
Jon: yeah, I got fire resistance, I bet there's a save involved, I got healing and good saves. I wanna try it.
Sam: you take 5d6 damage half-divine half fire, no save. *after exiting the fire* the ceiling starts to come loose, it blocks the path forward
Jon: I wanna climb over it
sam: ok, but first make a reflex save
Jon: result 22
sam: *sighs* another one
Jon result 18
sam: another one (no explanation given)
Jon: result 12
Sam: ok, now one more
Jon: result 17
Sam: *sighs again* ok and a climb check
jon: result 4
Sam: Ah ok, you fall off the bridge take 4d6 damage
Jon: I knew something was telling me not to go through the fire wall.
Pretty much in our campaign, its known that there is a correct, or at most 3 or 4 correct paths. Diverting from these will result in pain and will ultimately be futile.
For example, if they throw the cube away, it comes back the next day, and some random PC has a negative effect on them for few hours (which, believe it or not, actually makes sense with my storyline)
bottom line, i see that railroading is only bad if the group deems it bad.
Flipguarder
First Post
thanks everyone.
Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
It sounds like you know what you're doing now. If you can see what Sam is doing and know not to do that(though it can be hard not to, especially if you have alot of content/story you've created and really want the PCs to see it), it's unlikely you'll do that.
It sounds like your method to campaign creation is similar to mine, though you do a bit more design work than I do off the bat. The problem I find with creating "instances" and plot bits before hand is that they are wasted if the PCs you make don't want to go that route.
My personal style is let my players make whatever they want then make the story based off the players and the world I've created rather than making players conform to the the world and story I created in advance.
I prefer to work with my players while they are working on their characters one on one to be sure their characters work with my world.
Player: "I'm an elven sorcerer".
DM: "Well, Elves are banished and sorcerers are hunted by the government, so uh...".
This method not only helps you get an idea of the player's character in advance, it gives them some grounding on your world, you can explain related parts of your world to them to make them feel more connected to it and makes your world more immersive when their characters are explaining parts of your world to other players in the first session.
DM: "So if you're a Sorcerer, let me tell you about the Order of Free Mages and the Witch Hunter Clerics, because your character would know about them...."
During the first session:
DM: "A man walks in wearing a black cross on a thong around his neck and carries a crossbow with the bolt loaded and tipped in red. He makes an arcane gesture, scans the room, grunts and backs out slowly."
Players: "Who was that guy?"
Elven Sorcerer's Player: "We need to leave now."
Players: "Why?"
Elven Sorcerer's Player: "I can't explain now, there's going to be a dozen Witch Hunters and Godwrought Hounds here in a couple minutes." To DM: "I make the sign of the Free Mages and scan the room, muttering a prayer that someone sees it."
Wizard's Player: "I make the sign back, walk over, and say "this way, fellow Free Mage, there's a warded Enclave safehouse beneath the library - if we can get there. Let's take the back door. I know this town like the back of my spellbook." (and he does since when you worked with him on his character, you told him all about the town)
In the best case, working with your players in developing their characters (especially their secrets) can enrich your own world as they make their characters and come up with new ideas.
Player: "So what if I'm the last Elven Sorcerer, uh... say from an order called the Rearguard, left behind to make sure all that all the elves get away secretly."
DM(getting excited about a new element to his game): "Hm... that's a cool idea! Ok, so there's these Rearguards and they find elves in hiding, it would be cool if they also tried to find allies of the other races to overthrow the anti-elf government, what do you think?"
Player(getting excited about cool new stuff about his character): "Yeah, that sounds cool, so my guy is a rearguard, hunted by the government for being an elf and by the church for being a sorcerer..."
I've had awesome ideas/npcs/organizations/plot hooks that sometimes became primary focuses of my campaigns through these discussions.
As for XP, it should be way waaaaay simpler in 4E. I wouldn't worry about it until you see their xp rules.
It sounds like your method to campaign creation is similar to mine, though you do a bit more design work than I do off the bat. The problem I find with creating "instances" and plot bits before hand is that they are wasted if the PCs you make don't want to go that route.
My personal style is let my players make whatever they want then make the story based off the players and the world I've created rather than making players conform to the the world and story I created in advance.
I prefer to work with my players while they are working on their characters one on one to be sure their characters work with my world.
Player: "I'm an elven sorcerer".
DM: "Well, Elves are banished and sorcerers are hunted by the government, so uh...".
This method not only helps you get an idea of the player's character in advance, it gives them some grounding on your world, you can explain related parts of your world to them to make them feel more connected to it and makes your world more immersive when their characters are explaining parts of your world to other players in the first session.
DM: "So if you're a Sorcerer, let me tell you about the Order of Free Mages and the Witch Hunter Clerics, because your character would know about them...."
During the first session:
DM: "A man walks in wearing a black cross on a thong around his neck and carries a crossbow with the bolt loaded and tipped in red. He makes an arcane gesture, scans the room, grunts and backs out slowly."
Players: "Who was that guy?"
Elven Sorcerer's Player: "We need to leave now."
Players: "Why?"
Elven Sorcerer's Player: "I can't explain now, there's going to be a dozen Witch Hunters and Godwrought Hounds here in a couple minutes." To DM: "I make the sign of the Free Mages and scan the room, muttering a prayer that someone sees it."
Wizard's Player: "I make the sign back, walk over, and say "this way, fellow Free Mage, there's a warded Enclave safehouse beneath the library - if we can get there. Let's take the back door. I know this town like the back of my spellbook." (and he does since when you worked with him on his character, you told him all about the town)
In the best case, working with your players in developing their characters (especially their secrets) can enrich your own world as they make their characters and come up with new ideas.
Player: "So what if I'm the last Elven Sorcerer, uh... say from an order called the Rearguard, left behind to make sure all that all the elves get away secretly."
DM(getting excited about a new element to his game): "Hm... that's a cool idea! Ok, so there's these Rearguards and they find elves in hiding, it would be cool if they also tried to find allies of the other races to overthrow the anti-elf government, what do you think?"
Player(getting excited about cool new stuff about his character): "Yeah, that sounds cool, so my guy is a rearguard, hunted by the government for being an elf and by the church for being a sorcerer..."
I've had awesome ideas/npcs/organizations/plot hooks that sometimes became primary focuses of my campaigns through these discussions.
As for XP, it should be way waaaaay simpler in 4E. I wouldn't worry about it until you see their xp rules.
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