First time rogue

[Len]

No big deal.

I've been hit by a falling block trap that removed all my HP (after I made the reflex save) and a Symbol of Insanity that left me and the whole party in a bad situation.

If traps are "no big deal" for you then your DM is a softie.

 

[Michael Morris]

Your cleric can haev 2nd-level scrolls that prevent/cure that.

No big deal.

Yeah, but what about the CR 10 trap with entrapping doors and collapsing celing. Reflex save DC 25 to get out of the room before the doors close, else you are dead - starting on the 3rd round you take 10d6 crushing damage / round. Unless you can go ethereal or assume a gaseous form, you're toast.

Or a glyph pair that sets off a delayed blast fireball followed by a delayed blast acid ball for 15d6 a pop.

Or a rig that summons a 25 HD fire elemental and slams the door closed behind you.

And I'm only getting warmed up. Under some DM's traps are death warmed over.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yeah, but what about the CR 10 trap with entrapping doors and collapsing celing. Reflex save DC 25 to get out of the room before the doors close, else you are dead - starting on the 3rd round you take 10d6 crushing damage / round. Unless you can go ethereal or assume a gaseous form, you're toast.

Or a glyph pair that sets off a delayed blast fireball followed by a delayed blast acid ball for 15d6 a pop.

Or a rig that summons a 25 HD fire elemental and slams the door closed behind you.

And I'm only getting warmed up. Under some DM's traps are death warmed over.

It is fine if you or your DM prefer very dangerous traps. I think that is kind of cool.

But you are stretching the Challenge Rating system way past the breaking point. What you described above are not a CR 10 trap by any reasonable measure. That collapsing ceiling trick has about a 50+% chance of killing any typical Rogue of 10th level or less, and an even higher chance of killing some other classed character.

Perhaps it is not quite so bad if all the PCs are used to it and have the right kind of potions and escape items on their person at all times. If the they are expending precious resources for that kind of thing: Good! But that does not justify turning the CR system on its head.

 

[moritheil]

If you say that, your DM must not have the Book of Challenges.

Anyhow, regardless of whether or not a trap can or cannot kill you (and there do exist traps that can bring about the deaths of a party within appropriate CR range), as a rogue it is your duty to disable devices. If you don't do it, what on earth do they have you for?

Definitely talk with your group before skimping on Disable Device.

Disable Device is not very useful since traps are lame.
No single trap can kill you.

 

[Votan]

I am going to play a first level rogue for the first time and am looking for ideas. The group has a wizard, druid, cleric, and two fighters. We are sticking to Core and the Complete books, anything from other sources will be ruled on by DM on an as needed basis.

What classes, feats skills, etc. should I be looking at? What's a good progression? Is there a good way of combining a bard and rogue?

Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

If the bard/rogue comment was about creating a rogue with arcane abilities then let me recommend something that looks interesting: the Daggerspell Mage (complete adventurer).

The build that I think would work the best is: Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Dagerspell Mage 10 using the able learner feat from Races of Destiny to keep rogue skills up to maximum during the wizard levels. With an 18 INT, the "bad" wizard levels still net 6 skill points per level.

If Able Learner isn't an option, the feat "Practiced Spellcaster" (from Complete Divine) could work well. Something like a Rogue 4/Wizard 1/Daggerspell Mage 10 would also do a fine job of it. Adds some arcane spells to enhance the rogue and allows you to use them to improve your strikes. Doesn't sound so great until you realize that it works against critters that sneak attack does not (such as undead).

Also synergizes will with the feat "Arcane Strike" from complete warrior for a character who can do amazing damage in a surprise attack (and can use spells to make surprise easy to acheive).

It isn't a perfect build and can be criticized on a number of levels but it looks fun. I especially like how Daggerspell Mage has 6 skill points per level and a high INT drives both skills and spells. Needless to say, this is one of the very rare cases where I will argue for a wizard over a sorcerer.

 

[Shellman]

Fighter / Rogue.

More feats than normal, still not enough in my book.

Better Yet,

A Human Fighter/ Rogue will get one more extra feat and 4 more skill points to start off with.

Some idea's for a rogue:

Jack of all Trades Rogue:
I would take the Able Learner feat out of Races of Destiny.
Must be Human and taken at 1st level.
Makes all skills, even crossclass skills cost 1 point per rank.

Melee Rogue (not in any specific order):
Take Weapon Finesse
Take Improved Toughness
Take Weapon Focus
Take Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting etc.. This makes the Rogues sneak attacks that much more devastating whenever he can get them. BE ADVISED, this will probably make you the Big Nasty Evil Guy's (BNEG) primary meal!

If you need a rogue that be more of a scout or ranger but retain the rogue abilities, look at the Wlderness Rogue variant out of Unearthed Arcana.

 

[Numion]

I've been hit by a falling block trap that removed all my HP (after I made the reflex save) and a Symbol of Insanity that left me and the whole party in a bad situation.

If traps are "no big deal" for you then your DM is a softie.

Or you were ill-prepared. I used to 'trailblaze' traps with my cleric when I had my usual spells activated. Protection from elements (say, fire, lighting and acid), death ward, delay poison, etc .. I could walk into most traps with just minor ill effects. Used to annoy the party thief who wanted to find them by searching instead of me walking into them. For example, simple airwalk spell negates all pit traps for your character.

So it all depends. Traps that pose a threat beyond a prepared clerics arsenal are overkill for the normal party members or either just unplausible.

 

[Pinotage]

No offense, but if you can't sneak attack as a rogue, you shouldn't be IN melee. Period. No exceptions. The downside (getting full attacked with middling AC and low hit points) is just too scary.

It takes a while to learn that lesson, but it's an important one.

Do other things. Use wands -- if you can. Throw tanglefoot bags. Shoot arrows.

But a rogue is never going to be useful in melee if they can't sneak attack; it's not much of a limitation being a halfling in this regard. A half-orc rogue without sneak attack is bad in combat too, and can't take hits worth anything.

The equation is:

If rogue can sneak attack = enter melee with care and leave early if necessary
If rogue can't sneak attack = don't ever, ever enter melee, but help the party in other ways.

Exactly my point. Even at range with a bow, a halfling is useless damage wise, and slow to boot as Thanee points out. When you can't sneak attack you have to make sure you have the utility to do some damage or affect the combat outcome. I still don't like halfling rogues - I prefer dwarf or human.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

Besides, if you want combat character why play a rogue? Play a fighter.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Rogue's make fantastic melee combatents, and I'm more than happy to play both rogue and fighter, although I might substitute a few fighter levels for rogue levels there. You can get a decent hp with a decent Con (67 at level 10 with Con 16, compared to 89 for a fighter with the same Con), and decent AC as well with Chain Shirts and Bucklers. Plus, you have the utility of UMD to buff yourself with spells like False Life, Bear's Endurance and Alter Self, which makes for a great combat rogue combined with two-weapon fighting and sneak attack.

Pinotage

 

[two]

Exactly my point. Even at range with a bow, a halfling is useless damage wise, and slow to boot as Thanee points out. When you can't sneak attack you have to make sure you have the utility to do some damage or affect the combat outcome. I still don't like halfling rogues - I prefer dwarf or human.

Pinotage

You completely missed the point.

The "other things" that rogues can do (use UMD on devices, shoot arrows, throw tanglefoot bags, etc.) are things that halfling rogues can do just fine (compared to, say, a dwarven rogue).

A dwarf rogues who can't sneak attack (for example, when going up against undead) is just as "useless" as the halfling rogue in melee. In other words, they should BOTH NOT go into melee.

The dwarven archer is doing 1 more point of damage per round on average compared to the halfling -- this certainly isn't enough of a difference to matter. And the dwarf doesn't hit as often.

Both a human, dwarf, and halfling rogue have to do the same things when unable to sneak attack: help the party is non-damage dealing ways (primarily). Please explain how a Dwarven rogue has "utility to do some damage or affect the combat outcome" that an equal point-buy statted Halfling rogue can't match. The halfling CAN match it; although the damage done is pretty low and lame.

Now the halfling movement drawback is just that -- a drawback. Get boots of S&S as soon as possible if it's really messing you up. If the slower movement isn't worth the halfling bonuses -- well, that's your call. I don't think it's a big deal; after all, halflings get +1 to hit, +1 to AC (potentially +2 to hit with dex and finesse) compared to a dwarven rogue. That's not trivial at all. Or even +3 to hit when throwing stuff. That's downright solid for 1st level. A Halfling rogue with finesse can have +6 to hit at level1 (20 dex, +1 size). A dwarven rogue could manage at best +4 (stat). Most human fighter1's will have +5 or so.

One might argue that rogues make excellent ranged touch attack specialists (tanglefoot bag and other alchemical items) -- of these, halflings are the best of the bunch, due to their innate "+1 when throwing" bonus.

To sum:

Halfling Rogue = Dwarven Rogue = Human Rogue = terrible damage dealers when sneak attack impossible

If you don't like halflings for their slow movement, ok. That's one thing. But I don't buy the "lower damage dealing" argument. All rogues stink when sneak attack is impossible. All rogues can do good damage when sneak attack is possible.