First timer's First Question

[heromedel]

Hello, sorry if this in the wrong place but I am new to this forum and am hoping I can post house rules I am thinking of using and get some opinions on them.

For Example I was thinking of changing the Craft skill to work as followes;

I figure that the point of craft DC's is too have a harder challenge for more complex or useful items and since you multiply the DC with your result it helps to have a higher DC too get more work done faster.

I want too cut down on the math done during a playing session while crafting and cut down on dice rolls and such. The challenge factor of the DC simply makes you have weeks of no results if you fail or lose more money. Both of these I care little about keeping track of or having.

I see it as a character could take his time and not be stressed out and always take a 10 on the check and for the sake of suspension of believe just assume you are going at a steady rate where you will careful too not make mistakes.

This all leads up to my simple mechanic of assume the DC is equal to your craft bonus +10 and multiply them too get the amount of silver pieces worth of effort you can craft in a week.

Too simply

Craft squared = Silver Pieces worth of production

You still pay 1/3 of the base price of the item and such.

So Assuming my math is correct here is an example

Example
A 1st level expert has A 14 in craft weapon smithing (10 + 4 ranks) Assuming he is slightly above average in the right stat but still a commoner using the average array he would have a 13 (+1) and assuming he has skill focus craft (weapon smiting) that raises his stat another 3 to a total of 18

Assuming he takes his time and is not stressed he can make (18 x 18 = 324 SP) a dwarven war axe (30GP) in one week, costing him 10 gold. It would take him an additional 10 weeks and 100 gold to make it masterwork.

So to order a masterwork Dwarven war axe made by a human expert blacksmith you could expect a wait of just less then three months assuming he had the materials on hand.


So in conclusion my mechanic was:
(Craft bonus +10) squared = Silver Pieces worth of production
Costing 1/3 base cost too make the item.

I would never allow a player too assume or try to convert that instantly into profit. Seeing as how you can usually only sell at 1/2 base price and I could also throw in sales tax or something too keep this mechanic for production and not profit if I needed or wanted too.

So, what is your opinion of this mechanic?

 

[Pergentile]

The Craft skill has some major flaws. A simple but good piece of advice is to simply buy the magic items you need, having NPC's do the crafting.

Also, you want a method of profit? Buy a cow, cast Flesh to Salt, and sell the salt.

 

[heromedel]

The Craft skill has some major flaws. A simple but good piece of advice is to simply buy the magic items you need, having NPC's do the crafting.

Also, you want a method of profit? Buy a cow, cast Flesh to Salt, and sell the salt.

Maybe I am wrong but I don't think there is a spell called flesh to salt.

Also I don't see why I would completely disallow crafting there are many many ways of simplifying it even going as far as saying it takes a month per 1000 gold and you get half off or something quick like that. I am trying to remain open minded but I am close to thinking your post is trolling.

However if you were being serious and think crafting has no place in dnd then, I don't know what to say to that, do you even like role playing or only the battles?

Edit: I tried looking up flesh to salt and I guess it has something to do with the Sandstorm book, but not the core rules. I apologize but your post confuses me and seams like it was meant as a joke.

 

[Pergentile]

I didn't say you shouldn't allow Crafting, and I also don't see why you shouldn't allow it.

I am being serious, but how do you connect that with me thinking Crafting has no place in D&D?

Yes I do like roleplaying... what does that have anything to do with anything I've said?

You say you are trying to remain open-minded, but your post seems presumptuous, ignorant and defensive.

A player crafting an item takes a lot of time, time that, if they spent simply questing/getting treasure, would generally be way more beneficial. The costs a Player saves by crafting their own items is greatly outweighed by the loss of time. If you are the kind of DM/Player that likes in depth roleplaying, then what are the other players doing while this crafting is being done?

When a Player is spending a month crafting an item, and gets it cheaper then it costs to buy, the rest of the party shouldn't simply have to wait that time out without doing anything that benefits themselves.
Some groups are fine with "He crafts this item for a month, in that time, nothing happens, and you all find some way to pay for food/etc.", but not all are, especially if any of the players starts out a bit older and doesn't want to become Old before getting to fight some Trolls.

You seem to seriously be underestimating the value of in-game time. Not only will a Player Crafting something in the middle of a storyline screw everything up, but even if done outside of a storyline, players can only grow so old before feeling mechanical effects like penalties on their ability scores.

If you don't like Craft, then simply tell your Players not to do it, don't bastardize the system and hope for people to say "Hey that's a great idea!", because, as far as I can tell, its not, and seems to be done in a way that hurts both Role-playing as well as the Mechanical aspects of Craft.

Also, welcome to En-World.

 

[Dandu]

Edit: I tried looking up flesh to salt and I guess it has something to do with the Sandstorm book, but not the core rules. I apologize but your post confuses me and seams like it was meant as a joke.

Pretend he said Wall of Iron if you like to remain within Core.

 

[jefgorbach]

However if you were being serious and think crafting has no place in dnd then, I don't know what to say to that, do you even like role playing or only the battles?

Edit: I tried looking up flesh to salt and I guess it has something to do with the Sandstorm book, but not the core rules. I apologize but your post confuses me and seams like it was meant as a joke.

I believe his point was its far more beneficial to simply purchase/commission "routine" magic items and spend the corresponding time accomplishing the group's primary goal(s) instead of forcing the group to lay around while you "waste time" crafting for the insignificant discount.

Granted, your sor/wiz can get the group magical items for half-off by crafting them himself ... however its just a matter of time before he notices others of his station simply don't bother doing so for routine items, having realized they can have someone else do all the work for "free" AND end up with a surplus of wealth by creatively applying their spells.

For instance, the Wealth Other Than Coins table indicates you can purchase a cow for $10gp each and salt sells for $5p per pound. Since an average mature cow weighs 1,650 pounds, transmuting it into salt nets you a quick $8,250 (or $66,000 if you use Animal Growth beforehand)!

If your prefer a Core spell, a 12th level sor/wiz can use the 6th level spell, Wall of Iron to produce 12(5'x5'x 1-inch) = 25 cubic feet of pure iron x450 pounds per cubic foot (per Google search) x 1sp per pound from the Wealth Other Than Coin table, netting him a quick $11,250sp, less the $50 gold dust material component or $1,120gp per casting after the sp>gp conversion.

 

[heromedel]

Hmm, I can't help but thinking if a DM allowed such quick gain of money on more then a few occasions it would quickly get out of hand and possibly be bad DMing.

Also my playing group doesn't mind spending time doing things like crafting. Ok, maybe the fighter gets bored on occasions. I mean sure if time was an issue buying something already made is of course quicker, however thats assuming what you want it already made and just laying around waiting for you too buy it.

Although I was originally looking for critic of the mechanic itself maybe I should mention its most likely going to be used in a low magic campaign.

Anyway, assuming you wanted to craft something and all the other players didn't mind an all the other characters were spending time doing their own thing like training or dealing with diplomacy and guilds then would you prefer the basic mechanic with its chart of DC's and multiple rolls and possible failures for each week. Or some version of my mechanic which I am hoping the math could be done before the playing session and you could calculate the time it will take maybe even while the DM is busy with something else.

Also who said it would only be for wiz/sor others can craft things as well, don't forget about the fighters who might want to make their own masterwork full-plate. or the rouge who crafts her own poison.

Also if you go by certain stories or lore dwarfs could craft magical weapons without being a wizard. Yeah I know thats not core rules I'm just saying if you plan on for whatever reason to have a character crafting what is your favorite craft rules and what do you think of this idea.

Personally I like things that takes the characters time. This has never happened to me but I can imagine some people writing their characters during character generation and then hitting high levels with that exact same age.

 

[heromedel]

I didn't say you shouldn't allow Crafting, and I also don't see why you shouldn't allow it.

I am being serious, but how do you connect that with me thinking Crafting has no place in D&D?

Yes I do like roleplaying... what does that have anything to do with anything I've said?

You say you are trying to remain open-minded, but your post seems presumptuous, ignorant and defensive.

A player crafting an item takes a lot of time, time that, if they spent simply questing/getting treasure, would generally be way more beneficial. The costs a Player saves by crafting their own items is greatly outweighed by the loss of time. If you are the kind of DM/Player that likes in depth roleplaying, then what are the other players doing while this crafting is being done?

When a Player is spending a month crafting an item, and gets it cheaper then it costs to buy, the rest of the party shouldn't simply have to wait that time out without doing anything that benefits themselves.
Some groups are fine with "He crafts this item for a month, in that time, nothing happens, and you all find some way to pay for food/etc.", but not all are, especially if any of the players starts out a bit older and doesn't want to become Old before getting to fight some Trolls.

You seem to seriously be underestimating the value of in-game time. Not only will a Player Crafting something in the middle of a storyline screw everything up, but even if done outside of a storyline, players can only grow so old before feeling mechanical effects like penalties on their ability scores.

If you don't like Craft, then simply tell your Players not to do it, don't bastardize the system and hope for people to say "Hey that's a great idea!", because, as far as I can tell, its not, and seems to be done in a way that hurts both Role-playing as well as the Mechanical aspects of Craft.

Also, welcome to En-World.

I understand my post was essentially defensive I was hoping to not come of as presumptuous so I apologize. However my group likes crafting and each player in my group enjoys doing things in town, this mechanic is simply a way to quicken the Real life time dealing with crafting and allowing the players too choose to craft things quickly and then be done.

I do feel that you are forcing me to defend myself in simply asking for an opinion and don't expect people too like, in fact thank you for giving me your opinion, I like the part where you mention bastardizing it, I can see that in ways that is what I have done however it is a house rule in the process of being thought over.

I truly am not hoping to start or have a flame war but I feel that your originally post may as well have said, Screw crafting you should use the rules too quickly gain wealth instead.

Dang I guess this is more becoming an argument in some ways about weather crafting should even be done when instead you could min/max and power play.

I understand that some people and groups don't like certain ways of playing but others do. Hmm I don't know how to put this, I guess I just like looking and variant rules and ideas when certain things feel bogged down like rolling a craft check weekly. I'm not the first person to come up with a diffrent crafting rule.

Look Pergentile typing words is not the best for communicating so let me just say In my mind I am trying to be logical and friendly. Thank you for input I will try to make sure my players don't bored when my wizard crafts and also I might try turning a cow into stone and selling as a master piece carving, lol Actually I am going to try and come up with away to balance or be careful about that kind of thing. My group hadn't even thought of using spells to make money usually as we typical craft or profession in town then use spells too kill and loot, lol.

 

[heromedel]

Oh one more thing Pergentile you mention "and seems to be done in a way that hurts both Role-playing as well as the Mechanical aspects of Craft."

I am honestly curious in what ways do you think it will be hurting role playing.

I was mostly hoping to skip the weekly rolls and figuring out DC's but still allowing training in craft too increase productivity if used.

So I understand that I changed and therefore may have hurt the mechanical aspect of it, but since I definitely don't want too hurt the role playing I was hoping you could give me a bit more input on what you meant by hurt the roleplaying aspect of craft that. That way I can adjust or avoid doing so.

 

[heromedel]

Sorry to post right after myself twice now, but I think I might have figured out partly where some of you are coming from.

Typically you only get experience from killing and players love leveling up, therefore crafting is a waste of time right?

I think I will try to find more ways people too have fun in town, (and of course leave when they want too) but also I need to take a longer look at my experince system.

Currently I use lists like warhammers settlement events plus impromptu DMing to keep it interesting.

Do you guys have any other ideas on how too handle fun and/or XP outside of battle. ( I know thats going off topic but really this thread is about looking at crafting and what ways you guys like or dislike handling it.)

Again sorry about posting three times in a row.