D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[Charlaquin]

That ability is better on a character who does not have the option to Disengage as a Bonus Action already.

The ability to Help as a Bonus Action would also be better on a character who doesn't already have abilities tied into Bonus Actions.

Both of these statements can be true.

Just seems like a double standard. You critique one ability for competing with the rogue’s other bonus action options and the other for allowing the rogue to do something that would otherwise require their bonus action without having to spend it. I’m don’t think the latter ability would be better on a character without Cunning Actuon, because its value to the rogue is in freeing up its bonus action to do something other than disengage.

 

[ad_hoc]

Just seems like a double standard. You critique one ability for competing with the rogue’s other bonus action options and the other for allowing the rogue to do something that would otherwise require their bonus action without having to spend it. I’m don’t think the latter ability would be better on a character without Cunning Actuon, because its value to the rogue is in freeing up its bonus action to do something other than disengage.

Let's say a character gets this ability: "You may Disengage as a Bonus Action". They get this instead of some other useful ability.

That character then later gets this ability: "You do not provoke Opportunity Attacks when you move".

The value of the latter ability for that character is not as high as it would be without the former ability. The former ability is invalidated by the latter ability.

This is a more extreme version of what we're talking about for clarity.


This is also independently true:

The more Bonus Action abilities a character gains the less of an impact each one has on that character's effectiveness. More options is better than fewer options, no doubt.

Another way to put it:

The first Bonus Action ability is very good as it is essentially something extra to do for nothing. The 2nd ability provides options which is good. The 3rd ability is not as strong as gaining that 2nd option. The 7th Bonus Action ability is not as strong as that 3rd ability, and so on (assuming all abilities are equally as powerful).



It's not a double standard. They are independent things.

 

[Charlaquin]

Let's say a character gets this ability: "You may Disengage as a Bonus Action". They get this instead of some other useful ability.

That character then later gets this ability: "You do not provoke Opportunity Attacks when you move".

The value of the latter ability for that character is not as high as it would be without the former ability. The former ability is invalidated by the latter ability.

This is a more extreme version of what we're talking about for clarity.

Except it isn’t the same thing because the rogue has other things to do with is bonus action. That is where the value of the swashbuckler’s fancy footwork feature comes from.

This is also independently true:

The more Bonus Action abilities a character gains the less of an impact each one has on that character's effectiveness. More options is better than fewer options, no doubt.

Another way to put it:

The first Bonus Action ability is very good as it is essentially something extra to do for nothing. The 2nd ability provides options which is good. The 3rd ability is not as strong as gaining that 2nd option. The 7th Bonus Action ability is not as strong as that 3rd ability, and so on (assuming all abilities are equally as powerful).

Right, which is exactly why it doesn’t make sense to critique Fancy Footwork for letting the rogue do something it can already do. By removing the need for the rogue to use its bonus action to Disengage, all of the rogue’s other bonus action options become more valuable.

But, whatever. This is a pretty pointless tangent to the thread topic.

 

[CleverNickName]

Look to complicated for 5ed.
Add simply some extra dice to the sneak attack for the first round of of a combat.

I'd go even more simple, and take the initiative order and damage out of the equation altogether.

Maybe something like this?

Assassinate​

If the assassin scores a critical hit against a living creature, he can choose to have the target make a Constitution save throw (DC = 8 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier). If the creature fails this save throw, its hit points are reduced to 0. Large or larger creatures make this save throw with Advantage. The assassin must finish a long rest before they can use this ability again.​

 

[Immoralkickass]

I'd go even more simple, and take the initiative order and damage out of the equation altogether.

Maybe something like this?

Assassinate​

If the assassin scores a critical hit against a living creature, he can choose to have the target make a Constitution save throw (DC = 8 + proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier). If the creature fails this save throw, its hit points are reduced to 0. Large or larger creatures make this save throw with Advantage. The assassin must finish a long rest before they can use this ability again.​

Powerful abilities limited to once per day is not good design for a low level feature, especially the first feature in the subclass. If the target pass the save, the ability is wasted and you are back to being a plain ass Rogue for the rest of the day. Besides, having a save or die ability this early? Too broken, even if conditional.

 

[CleverNickName]

Powerful abilities limited to once per day is not good design for a low level feature, especially the first feature in the subclass. If the target pass the save, the ability is wasted and you are back to being a plain ass Rogue for the rest of the day. Besides, having a save or die ability this early? Too broken, even if conditional.

Yeah, probably. I'm just spitballing here. You could tinker with it, making it available again after a recharge time (like the banshee I borrowed this from), or after a short rest, or whatevs, but this would probably be better served for an assassin NPC, not a player.

On the other hand, with the damage increase of a critical hit, and the plethora of other abilities that could also trigger on a critical hit? I think it's probably a wash. An interesting alternative to the usual cries of MOAR DAMAEG LOL, anyway.

Calling it a "save or die ability" isn't really fair, because 0 hp isn't "dead" in 5th Edition...it just means that death possibly could happen, maybe, eventually. One healing word from the cleric (as a bonus action, no less!) and they're right back in action. And by the time they wake from an 8-hour nap, they won't even remember your assassination attempt.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't think it needs a huge buff. I just cleaned up the wording to get rid of the weird and feelbad situation where you get surprise but lose initiative. Surprise should trump the initiative roll, IMO, it just makes more sense.

you have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken an action in combat yet. If the creature was surprised this round, any of your attacks that hits is a critical hit.

 

[S'mon]

I agree with this assessment, but the problem is that having advantage against creatures that haven’t acted yet in the first round of combat feels like a really weak benefit compared to being able to Use an Object as a bonus action, having an invisible mage hand you can command with a bonus action, being able to Help from 30 feet away as a bonus action, or adding Charisma to Initiative and not provoking opportunity attacks from creatures you hit.

I find most Rogue players IMCs play Assassins, so their impression is presumably different from yours.

 

[Charlaquin]

I find most Rogue players IMCs play Assassins, so their impression is presumably different from yours.

I’ve had a decent number of assassins too, but they’ve all been disappointed when they realized how situational the auto-crit is.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I seem to be reading surprise differently to other people. The way I read the rules, if a target is surprised it lasts for the whole of the first round, it doesn't end when they have their turn.

My understanding is the main reason there is an initiative roll in the surprise round is that some targets may be surprised whilst others may not be.