D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[DND_Reborn]

Oops, I was doing Gloom 5/Assassin 3/Fighter 2. My bad.

Before crit
4d8 from gloom+3d6 hunter, x2 from fighter, 2d6 from rogue.
(18+10.5)x2 + 7
64
Then you crit to 128. Plus static modifiers times 6.

An assassin 10 is 1d8 bow + 5d6 sneak, doubled to 79. Plus static modifiers times 1.

With xbow expert adds another 1d8x2+stat (9+stat).

So, you're adding Hunter's Mark as well and action surge? How would you possibly expect an Assassin to match that?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Forgot the extra d8 from the Gloomstalker attack, yup. You have 2 extra sneak dice in there, though. So, we're at 10d8+4d6 vs 4d8+8d6 on dice. That's fairly significant even without the stat.

As I said, Gloomstalker hit a bunch of synergies in T2, but this is pretty much peak delta. And is still contingent on the GM allowing surprise.

I currently have a Gloom5/Ass3 in my game. It's nice, but not overwhelming, especially since I don't have a straight Assassin to worry about. And since I like using lots of lower CR foes rather than few higher CR.

Yeah, my initial calculations had 5d6 SA bonus, but I already changed it.

 

[NotAYakk]

So, you're adding Hunter's Mark as well and action surge? How would you possibly expect an Assassin to match that?

My point is that the benefit from the Assassin crit feature is much larger for other classes than for Rogues.

Because other classes have per-encounter/per-day spike damage they can deliver in that auto-crit window. Rogues (and Assassins) do not.

Here, I just leveraged a Fighter/Gloomstalker 2/5 opening salvo of 6 attacks. Any spike attack routine works.

A dual-wielding Paladin 2/Sorcerer X can also exploit assassin 3 (3 smites, doubled).

 

[DND_Reborn]

My point is that the benefit from the Assassin crit feature is much larger for other classes than for Rogues.

Because other classes have per-encounter/per-day spike damage they can deliver in that auto-crit window. Rogues (and Assassins) do not.

Here, I just leveraged a Fighter/Gloomstalker 2/5 opening salvo of 6 attacks. Any spike attack routine works.

A dual-wielding Paladin 2/Sorcerer X can also exploit assassin 3 (3 smites, doubled).

Ok, and I certainly agree (even without Hunter's Mark or Action Surge). And while most groups allow MCing, without it only the Assassin has this feature available. Since 5E was designed that way, it works fine that way.

But I get the problem when you MC, which happens a lot...

 

[NotAYakk]

Ok, and I certainly agree (even without Hunter's Mark or Action Surge). And while most groups allow MCing, without it only the Assassin has this feature available. Since 5E was designed that way, it works fine that way.

But I get the problem when you MC, which happens a lot...

Well, we could change Assasinate to make the attack double your sneak attack damage and grant crits on a 19-20.

That is a slight boost on average to Assassinate. It also removes synergy with other spike damage and some crit-fishing, including the power inside Assassinte.

Assassinate
You add 1/2 of your Rogue class level to your initiative rolls. On your first turn of combat you score critical hits on a 19 or 20. Attacks made on targets before they act on the first round of combat are at advantage; if they are also surprised, your sneak attack damage dice become 1d12s.

This (a) gives you something you get even if you lose initiative, (b) gives you a reason to boost initiative, and (c) gives you a crit-like damage doubler if you surprise a foe. And it clears up the "when is someone surprised".

Adding to your initiative means that your ability to reliably use this ability grows as you invest more in Rogue levels. At level 3 it is minor; by level 20 it is pretty dominant.

Finally, it gets people to buy and roll boatloads of d12s.

It needs fluff. And maybe move the initiative bonus to a level 9/13 feature.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, we could change Assasinate to make the attack double your sneak attack damage and grant crits on a 19-20.

That is a slight boost on average to Assassinate. It also removes synergy with other spike damage and some crit-fishing, including the power inside Assassinte.

Assassinate
You add 1/2 of your Rogue class level to your initiative rolls. On your first turn of combat you score critical hits on a 19 or 20. Attacks made on targets before they act on the first round of combat are at advantage; if they are also surprised, your sneak attack damage dice become 1d12s.

This (a) gives you something you get even if you lose initiative, (b) gives you a reason to boost initiative, and (c) gives you a crit-like damage doubler if you surprise a foe. And it clears up the "when is someone surprised".

Adding to your initiative means that your ability to reliably use this ability grows as you invest more in Rogue levels. At level 3 it is minor; by level 20 it is pretty dominant.

Finally, it gets people to buy and roll boatloads of d12s.

It needs fluff. And maybe move the initiative bonus to a level 9/13 feature.

That all works, but it get a bit complex IMO. What do you think of this, it follows your idea about increasing sneak attack damage and removes the need for surprise (something a lot of people seem to not like):

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score on a creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet that includes your sneak attack damage becomes a critical hit.

This removes the need for "does surprise exist or not?" and allows the bonus on only one attack per round.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That all works, but it get a bit complex IMO. What do you think of this, it follows your idea about increasing sneak attack damage and removes the need for surprise (something a lot of people seem to not like):

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score that includes your sneak attack damage becomes a critical hit.

This removes the need for "does surprise exist or not?" and allows the bonus on only one attack per round.

Still allows spiking.

Just have Assassinate maximize sneak attack damage on a hit. Crits would double max sneak. Solves the problem of crit fishing to stack off-class novas and yet still be worthwhile.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Still allows spiking.

Just have Assassinate maximize sneak attack damage on a hit. Crits would double max sneak. Solves the problem of crit fishing to stack off-class novas and yet still be worthwhile.

Like it. We already do max damage on a critical hit, so I am surprised I didn't think of it! LOL

So, we would have:

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised does maximum damage for your sneak attack.

If you want to remove the surprise requirement:

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet does maximum damage for your sneak attack.

 

[NotAYakk]

Assassinate

Starting at 3rd level, you are deadly when you get the drop on your enemies.

You add 1/2 of your Rogue level to your initiative store, and have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. During the first round of combat if the creature was surprised by the combat your sneak attack damage dice on them are 1d12s instead of 1d6s.

This still synergies a bit much with Champion 3 (I prefer my single-classes to be convex up). But I guess I can give you extended crit range at 9 or 13.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Maybe it "feels like" it from reading it, but it's actually a very underrated part of Assassinate (while the auto-crit is the overrated part).

Landing a practically guaranteed Sneak Attack in the first round — without having to hide, without having to wait on an ally to set you up to use Sneak Attack, without having to use a fragile familiar, without having to use any other actions or bonus actions of any kind — that's a pretty big deal.

You're highly overrating Advantage on attack, which only occurs in the first round, and only on creatures who have not taken their turn. You see unlike Assassin, Thief, Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler's features aren't made redundant by flanking rules or initiative order.