D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[S'mon]

I seem to be reading surprise differently to other people. The way I read the rules, if a target is surprised it lasts for the whole of the first round, it doesn't end when they have their turn.

My understanding is the main reason there is an initiative roll in the surprise round is that some targets may be surprised whilst others may not be.

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

Seems pretty clear to me.

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[DND_Reborn]

I seem to be reading surprise differently to other people. The way I read the rules, if a target is surprised it lasts for the whole of the first round, it doesn't end when they have their turn.

My understanding is the main reason there is an initiative roll in the surprise round is that some targets may be surprised whilst others may not be.

If you play there is a "surprise round", then you are reading the rules differently. Since 5E got rid of the idea of the surprise round in theory, but I understand what you mean since in practice it is basically the same thing really IMO.

We run surprise that the surprised creature does not act the first round, but can take reactions after their first turn, so the surprise "lessens" at that point. Some groups play they cannot even take reactions until their second turn on the second round.

Getting the auto-crit for surprise is difficult, but with the sneak attack thrown in it can be very powerful. Our group is fine with the rule as it is since getting advantage on the first round (without having to rely on stealth or an ally, etc.) is pretty good too.

 

[NotAYakk]

The auto-crit thing is great, but it works better on other classes; Sneak Attack is less burst and more consistent-scale damage. 20d6 at level 20 is ok (70) with a save for 140, but a 7 attack routine each dealing 8d8 or more (after crit) is a strong use of assassinate.

A Gloomstalker 5/Assassin 3 is getting 6 taps at 2d8+2d6 each (114), way outperforming an Assassin 8 (70).

 

[DND_Reborn]

The auto-crit thing is great, but it works better on other classes; Sneak Attack is less burst and more consistent-scale damage. 20d6 at level 20 is ok (70) with a save for 140, but a 7 attack routine each dealing 8d8 or more (after crit) is a strong use of assassinate.

A Gloomstalker 5/Assassin 3 is getting 6 taps at 2d8+2d6 each (114), way outperforming an Assassin 8 (70).

How are you getting that for the Gloomstalker/Assassin??

 

[Paul Farquhar]

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t."

Seems pretty clear to me.

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Yes, that's my reading. In which case you can use "assassinate" irrespective of if your target has it's turn before or after you. It doesn't stop being surprised when it has it's turn.

 

[Ovinomancer]

How are you getting that for the Gloomstalker/Assassin??

Yeah, I see 6d8+4d6+3*DEX from 3 attacks (extra attack and ambush) one sneak. Maybe another 2d8 off hand? But then an assassin 8 is 2d8+8d6+DEX and also has the extra 2d8 offhand (assuming rapiers).

That's only a few points off outside of the stat bonuses. Gloomstalker edges right up to broken in Tier 2, though, when you work in synergies like zephyr strike and multiclass. It fades off in Tier 3 though.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, I see 6d8+4d6+3*DEX from 3 attacks (extra attack and ambush) one sneak. Maybe another 2d8 off hand? But then an assassin 8 is 2d8+8d6+DEX and also has the extra 2d8 offhand (assuming rapiers).

That's only a few points off outside of the stat bonuses. Gloomstalker edges right up to broken in Tier 2, though, when you work in synergies like zephyr strike and multiclass. It fades off in Tier 3 though.

I must be missing something. I still don't get that damage for the G/A...

Additional Gloomstalker attack: Weapon (d8) + d8 + DEX
Two attacks (extra attack): Weapon (d8) + DEX, twice
TWF attack: Weapon (d8) + DEX (OPTIONAL)
Sneak attack: 2d6

Since each hit will be a critical hit: 10d8 + 4d6 + 4*DEX

If a rogue is also using TWF, he potentially has:
One attack: Weapon (d8) + DEX
TWF attack: Weapon (d8) (OPTIONAL)
Sneak attack: 4d6

With crits: 4d8 + 8d6 + DEX

If we set the typical probability to hit at 0.6 (0.84 due to advantage) per attack, and DEX bonus +4, the avg damage works out to 65.23082 for the G/A and 45.7632 for the Assassin.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I agree with this assessment, but the problem is that having advantage against creatures that haven’t acted yet in the first round of combat feels like a really weak benefit compared to being able to Use an Object as a bonus action, having an invisible mage hand you can command with a bonus action, being able to Help from 30 feet away as a bonus action, or adding Charisma to Initiative and not provoking opportunity attacks from creatures you hit.

Maybe it "feels like" it from reading it, but it's actually a very underrated part of Assassinate (while the auto-crit is the overrated part).

Landing a practically guaranteed Sneak Attack in the first round — without having to hide, without having to wait on an ally to set you up to use Sneak Attack, without having to use a fragile familiar, without having to use any other actions or bonus actions of any kind — that's a pretty big deal.

 

[NotAYakk]

Oops, I was doing Gloom 5/Assassin 3/Fighter 2. My bad.

Before crit
4d8 from gloom+3d6 hunter, x2 from fighter, 2d6 from rogue.
(18+10.5)x2 + 7
64
Then you crit to 128. Plus static modifiers times 6.

An assassin 10 is 1d8 bow + 5d6 sneak, doubled to 79. Plus static modifiers times 1.

With xbow expert adds another 1d8x2+stat (9+stat).

Similar stuff happens if you dip assassin 3 with a paladin 2 (+X) and chain-smite.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I must be missing something. I still don't get that damage for the G/A...

Additional Gloomstalker attack: Weapon (d8) + d8 + DEX
Two attacks (extra attack): Weapon (d8) + DEX, twice
TWF attack: Weapon (d8) + DEX (OPTIONAL)
Sneak attack: 2d6

Since each hit will be a critical hit: 10d8 + 6d6 + 4*DEX

If a rogue is also using TWF, he potentially has:
One attack: Weapon (d8) + DEX
TWF attack: Weapon (d8) (OPTIONAL)
Sneak attack: 4d6

With crits: 4d8 + 8d6 + DEX

If we set the typical probability to hit at 0.6 (0.84 due to advantage) per attack, and DEX bonus +4, the avg damage works out to 65.23082 for the G/A and 52.584 for the Assassin.

The obvious advantage is the Extra Attack. Without it, the G/A drops to 54.31082, just a couple points above the Assassin. Still, it shows how MC combinations can easily be more powerful than single-class PCs.

Forgot the extra d8 from the Gloomstalker attack, yup. You have 2 extra sneak dice in there, though. So, we're at 10d8+4d6 vs 4d8+8d6 on dice. That's fairly significant even without the stat.

As I said, Gloomstalker hit a bunch of synergies in T2, but this is pretty much peak delta. And is still contingent on the GM allowing surprise.

I currently have a Gloom5/Ass3 in my game. It's nice, but not overwhelming, especially since I don't have a straight Assassin to worry about. And since I like using lots of lower CR foes rather than few higher CR.