D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[Fenris-77]

But it says you don't have reactions until the end of the turn, not the end of the round; so after your turn - immediately before the next turn, not immediately before your next turn - you can take reactions.

Turn and round are not interchangeable. Once your first turn ends, you can take reactions. In the first round, if you were high in the initiative order.

To be fair, your reading is a nice stealth-fix to the problem most people have with the assassinate feature, so I might go that route anyways, but I think it goes against the rules as written..

That's an excellent point. I must have been reading round for turn. OK then, initiative matters. Nothing to see here, you can go about your business.

 

[Flamestrike]

Surprise in 5E is confusingly described,

No, it's not.

You just never read it.

 

[abirdcall]

...

 

[Gladius Legis]

The thing is though that D&D is a team game.

IME surprise on the PC side happens very rarely.

This is something I caution new players who want to play Rogues (esp. Assassins). The game is not set up for the style of play they might be envisioning.

The Assassin's best friend is a Druid or Ranger with Pass without Trace.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I realized most movie and video game "assassins" that I come up with aren't entirely about the stealth kill - James Bond, Edward Kenway, John Wick all have that option, but they also know how to walk into a room of baddies openly and kill the bunch of them.

So I'm wondering if focusing on first-turn alpha strikes wasn't the wrong approach to use in the beginning? Maybe leave in free advantage if you go before their first turn / they're surprised, but the assassin subclass should get a core benefit that helps every turn. Like a fighting style or other bonus that doesn't depend on sneak attack?

 

[Horwath]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I realized most movie and video game "assassins" that I come up with aren't entirely about the stealth kill - James Bond, Edward Kenway, John Wick all have that option, but they also know how to walk into a room of baddies openly and kill the bunch of them.

So I'm wondering if focusing on first-turn alpha strikes wasn't the wrong approach to use in the beginning? Maybe leave in free advantage if you go before their first turn / they're surprised, but the assassin subclass should get a core benefit that helps every turn. Like a fighting style or other bonus that doesn't depend on sneak attack?

rogue with more open combat options would not fit for an assassin.

Assassins do not stick around for brawls.

That could be some versions of a "thug" or similar:

Thug - (some crude draft subclass abilities):

3rd level; you gain proficiency with medium armor, shields and one martial melee weapon.
You gain one fighting style: dueling or great weapon style.
you can sneak attack with non-finesse weapons

9th level; you gain Extra attack feature

13th level; when you make Attack action with melee weapon and you had advantage on at least one attack, you can make additional attack with that weapon as a Bonus action,

17th level; riposte: when an enemy misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack vs that enemy as a reaction, if the enemy is in your reach.

 

[Fenris-77]

And now this sounds exactly like some previous threads about assassins where everyone stakes out some ground about "this is what an assassin is/does" and defends that unto death in the face of people with different opinions.

One guy: John Wick is super cool. What would an assassin like that look like in D&D? Maybe he'd have more combat ability..

Another guy: More combat ability wouldn't be an assassin though. Call it something different and less sexy. Maybe Brute....

One guy: But John Wick is an assassin...

Another guy: Nah bro, assassins don't stick around for brawls.

One guy: But John Wick is an assassin...

Another guy: Nah bro, if he fights multiple enemies he's something else. Maybe a fighter...

And so on and so forth. Yawn, semantics, boring. My apologies to @Horwath who's playing the role of straw man here. Nothing personal at all.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I realized most movie and video game "assassins" that I come up with aren't entirely about the stealth kill - James Bond, Edward Kenway, John Wick all have that option, but they also know how to walk into a room of baddies openly and kill the bunch of them.

There's just as many examples of assassins in literature and history who make it a point to avoid direct confrontation. Going pure Assassin Rogue is meant to model those kinds of assassins. However, those assassins you describe can pretty easily and effectively be portrayed in D&D terms as some multiclass of Assassin and Fighter.

 

[jmartkdr2]

There's just as many examples of assassins in literature and history who make it a point to avoid direct confrontation. Going pure Assassin Rogue is meant to model those kinds of assassins. However, those assassins you describe can pretty easily and effectively be portrayed in D&D terms as some multiclass of Assassin and Fighter.

True, but most of them don't usually work with adventuring parties either, which is the other main issue with the assassin as a class.

And most of them can fight even if they don't have stealth from the foe - they prefer to kill without being seen, but it's rarely their only option. I would want to leave that option in, don't get me wrong, but trying to build a character class (or even kit) around it has confounded designers for at least four editions now. So I'm suggesting a new approach.

If they need to use extensive stealth to use their core features, they're going to have a hard time fighting alongside... most pc's, really. Any class that needs to split the party to function isn't going to fit in anyways, so why not go with a version of assassin that doesn't clash with the idea of the adventuring party?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yeah the problem is that the connotation most of us probably have of "assassin" doesn't really fit with several key aspects of D&D, and really most RPGs.

There's really nothing wrong with the Assassin subclass, or the Assassinate ability, except in cases where we wish our characters were more powerful than other characters.