"fixing" Expertise?
- Thread starter evilbob
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
You can take Weapon Expertise multiple times, for different weapon groups. Certain weapons belong to multiple groups. Expertise provides an untyped bonus, so it stacks with anything. So, take your halberd, get weapon expertise (pole arms) and weapon expertise (heavy blade) and by RAW you get +2/+4/+6 to attacks with the halberd. Obviously this wasn't quite thought through all the way...
My answer for THAT would be to simply houserule away the option to take Weapon Expertise more than once. It is not beyond the realm of possibility someone could want to use it twice in a non-abusive way, but I suspect it would be rare. After all why would someone say be a TBF Ranger and use an axe in one hand and a sword in the other? At best that is already a suboptimal build, so it is doubtful someone doing that will be too upset if one weapon loses a +1.
Personally I like option 3 since I am not really convinced this is all nothing but a math fix and yet even so it seems unduely onerous to make clerics and paladins and other builds that use both weapon and implement attacks to burn two feats while everyone else gets to burn just one.
aurance
Explorer
The problem with option 3 is that, given your assumption (that there is a problem with the math), it is functionally equivalent to "Everyone has one less feat, and instead has this." That is, the feat with the power level of option 3 is a non-choice.
I dislike the flavor of option 2. You would potentially gain +9 of your attack "skill" from your weapon alone, which seems like a huge proportion of a character's overall power derived from a gadget.
I like option 1 or 1b. I prefer these kinds of fixes to be as behind the scenes as possible, but I often tinker with monster stats on the fly and like to distribute some of the math work to the players, so I'll go with option 1 as my favorite.
I dislike the flavor of option 2. You would potentially gain +9 of your attack "skill" from your weapon alone, which seems like a huge proportion of a character's overall power derived from a gadget.
I like option 1 or 1b. I prefer these kinds of fixes to be as behind the scenes as possible, but I often tinker with monster stats on the fly and like to distribute some of the math work to the players, so I'll go with option 1 as my favorite.
Bonuses of the same 'type' never stack.
Expertise is an untyped bonus, not a feat bonus.
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
Out of the three, I'd prefer #1 as a player. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. As a DM I use a more fine-tuned fix because expertise just doesn't cut it for me. The magic missing number is 4, not 3, and it needs to be added to PC defenses too, not just attacks.
Here's what I am considering.
4. Free feat for everybody: Every PC gets one free Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise of their choice. People who want additional versatility can take it again. The bonus becomes a feat bonus so that it does not stack with itself.
- Pros: Minimal change to the feats themselves (unnamed bonus becomes feat bonus). Does not cost anyone a feat slot (i.e., no one will make the mistake of skipping this feat in favor of something more interesting).
- Cons: Blatant PC power creep (because it no longer costs a feat slot). Doesn't help non-weapon, non-implement powers any. Minor feat-tax for clerics and paladins and others who use both a weapon and an implement.
-- 77IM
4. Free feat for everybody: Every PC gets one free Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise of their choice. People who want additional versatility can take it again. The bonus becomes a feat bonus so that it does not stack with itself.
- Pros: Minimal change to the feats themselves (unnamed bonus becomes feat bonus). Does not cost anyone a feat slot (i.e., no one will make the mistake of skipping this feat in favor of something more interesting).
- Cons: Blatant PC power creep (because it no longer costs a feat slot). Doesn't help non-weapon, non-implement powers any. Minor feat-tax for clerics and paladins and others who use both a weapon and an implement.
-- 77IM
deleteme123456
Explorer
Cons: Obsoletes feats which give a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls such as Hellfire Blood.
evilbob
Adventurer
This isn't a problem for me because the Expertise feats already fit that description: they are both non-choices for any build. I'm not trying to get into a discussion about why I feel that way (again: see other threads) but just trying to explain why I'm perfectly comfortable with that. To me, option 3 just calls Expertise what it is: a feat tax. You're still free to not choose it, but you won't enjoy the clear benefit, either. It's the option that you choose because you still have hope that the developers honestly thought that PCs had one too many feats and this was the best way to fix the math in the game. Otherwise, you need to just give up on hope and go with option 1.
77IM: Yeah, what infocynic said. Plus, that still doesn't address what I feel is honestly the most egregious part of the Expertise feats: cleric and paladin mulit-feat requirement (i.e. "double feat tax"). These are already the worst classes in terms of double weapon costs and MAD, and then to kick them while they're down... Just mean.
