"fixing" Expertise?

[77IM]

Cons: Obsoletes feats which give a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls such as Hellfire Blood.

Yeah, I missed that one. I would say that they should not stack (constant bonuses rarely should), and propose a fix of Hellfire Blood increasing to +2 at level 15 and +3 at level 25. But this leads us down the road of domino-effect fixes...

Alternate proposal: Instead of calling Expertise a feat bonus, just say it doesn't stack with itself. (This could be considered a clarification rather than a change.) Or if you prefer, introduce a new bonus type and call it an "expertise bonus."

-- 77IM

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Maybe I'm just naive, but I'm fairly certain the designers didn't intend expertise to stack with itself anyway.

 

[evilbob]

Or if you prefer, introduce a new bonus type and call it an "expertise bonus."

That's not a bad idea at all.

In either case, I am feel confident that if the actual text allows it to stack with itself, that will be one of the first nigh-universal house rules to the game.

 

[grickherder]

I like 1 (both a and b)-- they're essentially the same as putting the attack roll up or the target number down produces pretty much the same result.

I'm of the opinion though that expertise is fine as it is as it allows players/groups to choose whether or not they're finding hitting to be too hard or not. We've all been playing since 4e was released and there's been very few complaints about not being able to hit (though the vast majority of play is likely at the heroic tier). It's nice that there's something to off set things without having to errata the whole system (not that it's much of an errata).

If I find expertise becomes problematic, I'll go with 1a/b, but will be going with expertise as is for the time being.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Maybe I'm just naive, but I'm fairly certain the designers didn't intend expertise to stack with itself anyway.

They might not have intended it, but they had 2 choices within the framework of the rules, an untyped bonus, which stacks with anything, including itself in this case, or a feat bonus, which nothing ELSE will stack with, which makes any other feat that gives less than a +2/+3/+4 feat bonus worthless, since it will be overshadowed at all times by expertise.

So basically a new rule mechanic would have to exist in order to fix the problem, or a special disclaimer text on expertise that explicitly states it can never stack with itself. Or Weapon Expertise would have to be a 'take only once' feat, in which case the whole thing is moot. The point being it is broken as written, so some kind of house rule is required.

 

[evilbob]

In either case, I am feel confident that if the actual text allows it to stack with itself, that will be one of the first nigh-universal house rules to the game.

Just got the book yesterday. The text is exactly how everyone thought/said it would be. It definitely stacks with itself, no question. It definitely punishes clerics/paladins/avengers, no question.

Implementing house rule option #3 above in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Obryn]

Just got the book yesterday. The text is exactly how everyone thought/said it would be. It definitely stacks with itself, no question. It definitely punishes clerics/paladins/avengers, no question.

Implementing house rule option #3 above in 3, 2, 1...

Yeah, I went with #1. I hate penalizing the already-lacking non-weapon, non-implement powers. I also like my players to take interesting feats.

I decided to give their abilities the Expertise bonuses, rather than change out defenses. I'm the DM, and I already do enough bookkeeping, thankyouverymuch.

-O

 

[Alisair Longreach]

I would like to propose option 4:

Ban the Expertise feats. Boost the ability score increases to +2. Add the Agile property to all masterwork heavy armor.

The boost also fixes the problem with lagging AC and defenses. The Agile property get heavy armor users to keep up. I know this leaves one defense score severely lagging behind but this can be fixed by either giving out a bonus feat to shore it up or letting it be, saying that an Achilles heel is heroic.

I know that my proposition also adds many domino effects on skill bonuses, class features, extra damage on powers and other stuff.
I think that is okay as it also fixes other problems in 4E ruleset like the skill challenge DCs and Grindspace.

 

[deleteme123456]

There is no lagging AC problem, except for maybe one of the Shaman builds, or crazy Starlocks who try to boost Cha and Con and stay in light armor.

Light AC improvements over 29 levels:
+15 half level, +6 enhancement, +4 ability (+5 demigod), +2 masterwork = +27/28

Heavy AC improvements over 29 levels:
+15 half level, +6 enhancement, +6 masterwork = +27

Monster attacks improve by 29, so I suppose technically you're 2 behind, but a modicum of defensive feats can shore that up quickly. Most characters can get their armor specialization feat, or even just upgrading their armor by one step, or picking up light shield proficiency, or a defensive weapon, or two-weapon fighting, etc. etc.

Adding agile to all heavy armor just favors the classes that wear it, and makes the light armor classes feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal.