Fixing negative HP at high levels: feedback?
- Thread starter schnee
- Start date
Wow, some really cool ideas here.
I plan on telling them after each combat is over. We like to analyze things like that as a group afterwards... I can see why you'd say that but I don't think it'll be a problem with my group.
I *really* like the flavor of that, but I'm worried it may 'nerf' the reward of really creaming a bad guy with a good hit... someone being brought to -20 in one hit shouldn't be moving, while someone at -1 to -5 might. Perhaps a Fort save to get that disabled round, with the amount of damage you are below 0 as a mod to the DC? I dunno, this verges on getting too complicated (let's factor in Endurance and Die Hard now), but I love the idea of some PC through sheer force of will performing that one last act before falling. It also sets up really cinematic moments - like Boromir in LoTR - if it's done properly.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
The DM in the game I play in uses a threshold of - (10+level+Con bonus) and the party (which is now about 8th-10th level) have had several people survive because of this - although several have died too.
I think it is a fine policy.
I think it is a fine policy.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Hygric said:
Out of interest, why bother with this? I can't imagine epic characters having any difficulty making a mere DC15 ST anyway!
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Plane Sailing said:
Well, in 3.5 at least, you fail all saves on a natural 1...
Sephiroth no Miko
First Post
At the embarrassment of entering this discussion a month late, I would like to add my 0.02. 
I use a house rule where everyone (PCs and NPCs) die at -(CON score) and are disabled at 0 to -(CON modifier). This means your average commoner with a CON of 10 still dies at -10 and is disabled at 0 hp as in the standard rules (characters with a CON of less than 10 are still disabled at 0, though they die at whatever their -(CON score) is). But it allows PCs (and NPCs) with above average CON scores to have a few rounds of action before they fall unconscious. Any strenuous actions still drop their hps by 1 (they're stable if they don't do anything strenuous), but unless they drop below their -(CON modifier), they remain conscious.
So for example, Bob the fighter has a CON of 16 (a +3 modifier). He is disabled (conscious) from 0 to -3, dying (unconscious) from -4 to -15, and dead at -16.
You can easily modify the Diehard feat to allow characters to simply remain conscious during the dying phase, as determined by their CON score.
To a certain extent, I like the idea of factoring levels into a character's negative hitpoint pool but I'm also leery of having a massive negative hitpoint pool (more than say, -20)-- in my mind, a higher-level character already has more hitpoints to represent the fact that he's harder to kill. If a fighter with 150 hitpoints has been reduced down to less than a quarter of his hitpoints, he should start looking to withdraw or fight more defensively, especially if he knows that he's fighting a creature that can hit hard, instead of relying on having a lot of negative hit points to absorb that critical. (Then again, when do players withdraw from combat unless they're dropped?
) I mean, if you're a high-level character and you're so badly hurt that a decent sword swing can take you out, shouldn't you be playing it safer (unless you're aiming for a glorious, gory death)?
In the end, I guess it depends on what your priorities are. I'll admit my system tends to keep lower-level characters alive (especially mages, who might be 3rd or 4th level before their positive hitpoints exceed their negative... weird, but doesn't bother me too much) and is of a more minor benefit to higher-level characters. I will add in one caveat: I do allow temporary ability score modifiers to affect the character's negative hit points. That is, if Bob the fighter normally has a CON of 16, but is wearing an amulet of health +4 (or has bear's endurance cast on him) so that his current CON score is 20, he dies at -20, not at -16. Likewise, if he's been CON-drained to 12, he'll die at -12, not -16. That said, higher-level characters do have ready access to spells and items that can boost their CON scores, and therefore, their negative hitpoint score as well.
I use a house rule where everyone (PCs and NPCs) die at -(CON score) and are disabled at 0 to -(CON modifier). This means your average commoner with a CON of 10 still dies at -10 and is disabled at 0 hp as in the standard rules (characters with a CON of less than 10 are still disabled at 0, though they die at whatever their -(CON score) is). But it allows PCs (and NPCs) with above average CON scores to have a few rounds of action before they fall unconscious. Any strenuous actions still drop their hps by 1 (they're stable if they don't do anything strenuous), but unless they drop below their -(CON modifier), they remain conscious.
So for example, Bob the fighter has a CON of 16 (a +3 modifier). He is disabled (conscious) from 0 to -3, dying (unconscious) from -4 to -15, and dead at -16.
You can easily modify the Diehard feat to allow characters to simply remain conscious during the dying phase, as determined by their CON score.
To a certain extent, I like the idea of factoring levels into a character's negative hitpoint pool but I'm also leery of having a massive negative hitpoint pool (more than say, -20)-- in my mind, a higher-level character already has more hitpoints to represent the fact that he's harder to kill. If a fighter with 150 hitpoints has been reduced down to less than a quarter of his hitpoints, he should start looking to withdraw or fight more defensively, especially if he knows that he's fighting a creature that can hit hard, instead of relying on having a lot of negative hit points to absorb that critical. (Then again, when do players withdraw from combat unless they're dropped?
) I mean, if you're a high-level character and you're so badly hurt that a decent sword swing can take you out, shouldn't you be playing it safer (unless you're aiming for a glorious, gory death)?In the end, I guess it depends on what your priorities are. I'll admit my system tends to keep lower-level characters alive (especially mages, who might be 3rd or 4th level before their positive hitpoints exceed their negative... weird, but doesn't bother me too much) and is of a more minor benefit to higher-level characters. I will add in one caveat: I do allow temporary ability score modifiers to affect the character's negative hit points. That is, if Bob the fighter normally has a CON of 16, but is wearing an amulet of health +4 (or has bear's endurance cast on him) so that his current CON score is 20, he dies at -20, not at -16. Likewise, if he's been CON-drained to 12, he'll die at -12, not -16. That said, higher-level characters do have ready access to spells and items that can boost their CON scores, and therefore, their negative hitpoint score as well.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
Sweet, just reading the thread I get to the very bottom and see the addition I wanted to make beyond the good things said so far. 
Good thread, I'll be adding the -10-HD for death threshold and be extending the disabled range to 0-Con Mod. Thus a character with a higher con mod wil be much more likely to be disabled than dying and higher level characters take a moderate amount more damage to outright die, not bad. Thanks all!
Good thread, I'll be adding the -10-HD for death threshold and be extending the disabled range to 0-Con Mod. Thus a character with a higher con mod wil be much more likely to be disabled than dying and higher level characters take a moderate amount more damage to outright die, not bad. Thanks all!
Jack Daniel
Legend
My solution has been to replace the idea of negative hit points with "countdown points," like in Final Fantasy Tactics. This is better than negative hit points because taking damage can't drop you below 0 hit points, but when you do reach 0 hp and start dying, you have at most 10 rounds to live (I actually use 2d4+2). Every round, you have an 10% chance of stabilizing and a 90% chance of losing one point and continuing to die, just like normal. The difference is, if some guy comes up and whacks you, unless it's a coup de grace, you don't die outright -- you lose another point of countdown and get that much closer to "dead."
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