Fixing the Bow Mechanics

[Cloudgatherer]

The way bows and arrows are handled in D&D 3rd edition just bugs me. They are a stackers dream, allowing for a possible +10 to hit and to damage before factoring in the character using the bow/arrows as well as special abilities (flaming for instance).

I propose a house rules that helps reign in bows. The enhancement bonus on a bow only counts toward the attack roll (not damage) and the arrows' bonus only counts toward damage (and not to attack rolls). Masterwork bonuses provide their +1 toward their respective rolls (to hit for bows, to damage for arrows).

Bows now come back down to the rest of the weapons, where they max out on +5/+5 to hit/damage bonuses. Naturally, this is all independent of strength, the character wielding it....

A last idea would be to reduce the cost of bows and arrows by half. Since under this house rule, they have been reduced in power by a bit, and putting together a +5 bow with +5 arrows is still going to cost the same as a +5 melee weapon.

Any thoughts on this? Later!

 

[Uller]

I agree that you would definately need to reduce the cost of magic bows and arrows since it now would cost double to get the same benefit.

Maybe cut the cost of magic bows by 50% and arrows even more(maybe 2/3s).

I never minded the stacking...seems to make up for the drawbacks of a bow, but I doubt you are in the mood to debate that, so I'll refrain from commenting on that.

I don't like your solution for Masterwork Arrows and Bows because it basically gives them the same affect as +1 magic ones(except they don't penetrate DR).

Also, what about DR. Normally, DR penetration is determined by the arrows...now that arrows are cheaper, you could make it cheaper to penetrate DR with arrows than with melee weapons. Maybe take the lower bonus of the bow or the arrows? Maybe the average? So with a +3 bow and +1 arrows, they would count as +1 or +2 depending on the method.

 

[Crothian]

The reason the bonuses stack is that bows either get no damage bonus or a limited amount and that they suffer range penalties. Sure that +10 to hit from a bow +5 and an arrow +5 seems really good if all your encounters are at 50ft, but bows can be fired up to 10 range increments although at -18. I think those are some of the reasons for this.

Now, in your game if you feel this is too much then your rules seem very good. Would enchantments like Bane and flaming still work if on a bow or would some work only on a bow and some work only on the arrow?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Re: Uller

You may be right about the MW items. Perhaps I'll eliminate MW arrows altogether (or have them do something different). I had imagined leaving the DR rules the same, the bonus on the arrow determines what DR it can penetrate.

Re: Crothian

Bows get no damage bonus? Limited damage bonus? I'm not following. Maxing a character out at only 15th level, he could do +10 to hit/+14 to damage with +5 MC Longbow (+4) and GMW arrows (from party spellcaster). The Crit alone will force most creatures to save versus massive damage death. Even at max range increment, that's only a -8 to hit, which will only get better as the enemy closes.

Even at close ranges, all the character needs is mobility (greater speed than opponent). Not hard with haste, boots S&S, or a party tank to stand there and hack away...

A few reasons for the change: the bow+arrow combo shouldn't be an order of magnitude better than melee weapons (+10 versus +5). Also, I've yet to see my players or hear of other players investing in magic arrows. They are simply a waste most of the time with a party spellcaster who can keep them enchanted for the entire party.

 

[Weeble]

Remember Legolas...

 

[mmadsen]

The reason the bonuses stack is that bows either get no damage bonus or a limited amount and that they suffer range penalties.

Swords suffer even stiffer range penalties.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Crothian

Bows get no damage bonus? Limited damage bonus? I'm not following. Maxing a character out at only 15th level, he could do +10 to hit/+14 to damage with +5 MC Longbow (+4) and GMW arrows (from party spellcaster). The Crit alone will force most creatures to save versus massive damage death. Even at max range increment, that's only a -8 to hit, which will only get better as the enemy closes.

I was refering to non magical damage bonus. THe only ways to get it without magic is point blank shot with in 30ft, or get a composite bow and even those have damage limits. So, so you either have no damage bonus (normal bow) or a limited one (mighty bow).

 

[Crothian]

Swords suffer even stiffer range penalties.

And bows suffer a stiffer melee penalty then sword do. It's balanced out that way.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

And bows suffer a stiffer melee penalty then sword do. It's balanced out that way.

Such as? Most penalities can be ignored through either tactics or feats.

-4 for firing into melee -> Precise Shot
AoO for firing a bow -> move (5 ft or more)

As a last resort, one can always drop the bow and draw a sword and enter melee (Quick Draw).

Meanwhile, the bow user gets (up to) +10/+10 to attacks and damage, double what a melee character can get. Plus bows get up to +4 strength mod for damage...

 

[dvvega]

Actually the proposed house rule is what I used to use in 1e and 2e.

I've been allowing archers to go all out with the stacking in my current 3e campaign, but I have the benefit of controlling the archer-type class/prestige in my world, so they can't just go and choose things like the initiate.

However it's becoming extremely nasty. The current archer in one group is 8th level, and she is not a powergamer. As such, she only has +13 to hit on her best shot ... imagine if she was a min/maxer -=shudder=-. I'm leaning towards reintroducing the house rule from previous editions.

On the comment about masterwork etc, if you read the DMG carefully you will note that magic bows do not stack with masterwork arrows (and vice versa) ... so if an archer shoots a MW arrow from a +2 bow ... there's no stacking involved (pg 183, under Ranged Weapons and Ammunition).