D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

[Undrave]

who views it like that? What you describe is a commoner. A fighter also requires training to be able to do what it does. Just like a modern soldier has to go through months of training to be considered a soldier, rather than bubba who who poses with his AR15 and acts all billy badass.

Hmm... just a few posts before yours...

If it happens to take then class .... well, it doesn't. A 1st level fighter need not be a first time veteran and campaigner who's well traveled. He might be the village blacksmith's apprentice who's parents were just killed by goblins, or whatever.

 

[5ekyu]

I needed to yell about class, because you acted as if background addressed a class issue. You did so multiple times.

Also, I'm not trying to win. I am merely pointing out that the Fighter needs a small boost outside of the combat pillar.

That's it. Like a couple tools, or a skill, or certain minor feats -- not a lot

In 5e you do not play a class. You play a character. Thst includes a race, a background and a class. None of these is "balancced" in isolation. They are meant to be a package.

Had 5e been designed with no backgrounds, it's highly likely there would be more skills options embedded into the classes and races.

Trying to make meaningful discussion about non-combat and skills use between characters and wanting to cut out discussion of backgrounds is like trying to discuss and compare NFL teams performance without including special teams.

Classes were not built to run without backgrounds. Cut out backgtounds and your class discussion and data are incomplete and conclusions become invalid on their face - especially when skills and non-combat are keyv elements.

 

[Eubani]

You could be forgiven for thinking that martial characters are the only ones who get backgrounds for the number of people who think fixing the lack of non combat agency is as simple as take/use a background. Once again who else can do that? Could the answer be again "everyone".

Also to answer another logical fallacy that keeps getting shovelled in high piles is that popular does not equal without issue.

 

[5ekyu]

You could be forgiven for thinking that martial characters are the only ones who get backgrounds for the number of people who think fixing the lack of non combat agency is as simple as take/use a background. Once again who else can do that? Could the answer be again "everyone".

Also to answer another logical fallacy that keeps getting shovelled in high piles is that popular does not equal without issue.

Nobody is saying that only martial chsrscters get backgrounds. So, not sure anyone needs that forgiveness so generously offered.

 

[MGibster]

I think many of the flaws of the Fighter as it performs outside of combat is the result of a class system that encourages niche protection and Charisma having nothing to do with the core function of the class. Most Fighter players aren't going to invest much in Charisma and it's all too easy for them to sit back and let the Sorcerer, Cleric, or Warlock handle all the talky bits because they've got the skills a attributes to be good at it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You could be forgiven for thinking that martial characters are the only ones who get backgrounds for the number of people who think fixing the lack of non combat agency is as simple as take/use a background. Once again who else can do that? Could the answer be again "everyone".

Also to answer another logical fallacy that keeps getting shovelled in high piles is that popular does not equal without issue.

Yes, EVERYONE get's a background, so EVERYONE has something to do out of combat.

The "logical fallacy" is that only class-specific features can be used out of combat.

 

[Oofta]

"Fool" and "sucker" were your words.

"Trap option" is a quality of the class, not a failing of the players who might want to play it based on the concepts it's meant to model.

Perfect balance, is of course, unattainable.
But, no, balanced is not boring, quite the opposite, balanced classes provide meaningful, viable choices that don't punish you for playingbtge concept you want, nor playing a cooperative game to contribute to the collective "win."

Dude, you literally said fighters are for suckers, "casual players" or newbs. Your words, not mine.

 

[Oofta]

I think what really bothers me is that this whole thing is so non-nonsensical. Do fighters cast spells or have supernatural abilities out of the box? Other than a couple of sub-classes, no. They're fighters, not spell casters.

So how does any PC contribute outside of combat barring spells?

Through skills. Thanks to backgrounds you get several. Don't have a high charisma and want to be the party face? Well, sorry you should have built your character differently. Having stats that only contribute to combat and then complaining that you didn't take a sorcerer or bard is not the fault of the game. You start with 4-6 proficiencies, how many do you really need? How many people really use more than that? Between race and background you have access to all of them.

There's also the Prodigy feat from Xanathars. You get more feats and expertise by another name. Which yes, feats are optional blah, blah blah. But they are used in the vast majority of games and it's a simple solution.

Even when it comes to spells, I rarely see spells used other than rituals outside of combat. Even then they rarely change the direction of the game in any significant fashion. Yes it's fun to teleport halfway across the world at higher levels but the only reason you needed to do that in the first place was because the DM knew you could.

There's always Ritual Caster if it really turns your crank.

But the primary way any PC in my campaign contributes outside of combat is through role playing and the decisions they make for their character. If you feel that you can't RP a fighter, I feel sorry for you. If you're a DM and neither RP nor decisions are important to your game, well, it's not a game I personally would want to play and I feel sorry for your players.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, in 5e fighters characters can use their background to do stuff out of combat. It's a great feature of 5e, I'm very happy with it.

However, I find it strange that other characters can use their backgrounds and their classes to do stuff out of combat, but not the fighter. This is the crux of my argument.

edit: What I will do is create a Zouave subclass in a few days. It won't be super original and it will be "rough", but we'll see if it helps?

 

[Oofta]

Yes, in 5e fighters characters can use their background to do stuff out of combat. It's a great feature of 5e, I'm very happy with it.

However, I find it strange that other characters can use their backgrounds and their classes to do stuff out of combat, but not the fighter. This is the crux of my argument.

It's not a complete picture if you throw out backgrounds and (for most games) feats. It's like saying car X really sucks if you don't put tires on it.

But again, what would you add that would address this? Because the article linked to was a background with what were effectively a couple of bonus feats.