Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

[Feldspar]

If I modified the stat modifiers for Half Orcs, I would rather keep the -2 Intelligence and restore +0 to Charisma instead. Why?

- because Charisma is still defined as the general ability to persuade & influence others, whatever the way chosen (and not just through charming): generally speaking, it's the ability of having someone do what you tell him to do. The low-charisma guy is the one who stay silent in the back, or who nobody listens to.
A fierce brute is surely going to be persuasive on the average. In fact, everyone thinks you need to give HO a bonus to Intimidate to compensate. Instead, keep +0 Cha and give a penalty to Diplomacy/Perform if you want.

- because a Charisma penalty penalizes the Sorcerer class too much, and the Sorcerer concept fits savage races much more than the scholarly Wizard

- because on the party's perspective, Charisma still often ends up as a dump stat for many classes; Intelligence gives a real penalty at least in skill points to everyone

Otherwise, one could scrap all the mental penalties and give -2 Dex to compensate for +2 Str, with the reason that perhaps (Half)Orcs are a bit slow and bulky due to their muscles.

Its not just half-orcs that suffer from, IMO, wrongly applied Cha penalty. For example, ever thought about playing a Genasi sorceror who draws their powers from their elemental heritage? Does it make sense that you'll suffer and be a weaker spellcaster because people don't trust you cause you're a genasi or are "withdrawn and aloof". Not at all.

I think for pretty much almost any race with a Cha penalty because of how they interact with society, the Cha penalty should be dropped and replaced with a penalty (-2 so in fact twice as bad effectively) to skills like Diplomacy and Gather Information.

 

[Feldspar]

Here are the houserules we apply in our campaign for half-orcs:

• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. Replace the Cha penalty with skill specific penalties.
• -2 racial penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information and Perform checks: Half-orcs are not readily accepted among any race; Half-orcs must struggle against this prejudice when dealing with strangers.
• +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Sense Motive checks: Half-orcs are not readily accepted among any race; Half-orcs must quickly learn how to identify allies and discourage challengers in order to survive.
• Weapon Affinity: Combining the natural aggressiveness and combative nature of orcs with humankind’s adaptability and quick learning has produced a race which takes to weapon play like no other. Half-orcs choose one of the following at creation:

• Simple: may consider themselves proficient with all simple weapons
• Martial: may treat any martial weapon as if it were a simple weapon
• Exotic: may treat one chosen exotic weapon as if it were a martial weapon
​

Rather than learning specific weapons through a culture’s traditions, Weapon Affinity has its basis in the fusion of racial characteristics. Some examples:

• A single class half-orc wizard chooses Weapon Affinity: Simple, the only version from which he can derive benefit. As a wizard they've only had the most rudimentary combat training, yet they have no problems using such simple weapons as longspears and maces.
• A thuggish half-orc rogue forgets about trying to fence prettily and instead just bashes his opponent with a greataxe, taking advantage of his natural strength and his choice of Weapon Affinity: Martial.
• A half-orc ranger who is planning to go with the two weapon fighting track eagerly selects Weapon Affinity: orc double axe.​

A player’s choice is in no way dictated by the abilities or restrictions of their first class. For example, a player could select Weapon Affinity: spiked chain and start as a rogue. They would not be able to use the chain as a rogue, but if they later gained a level in a class which gave proficiency in all martial weapons then they would be able to.

EDIT: for formatting

 

[Agback]

refernces from Tolkien, since that is the sterio-typical half-orc;

WIS - Orcs in Middle-earth seem to have a slightly below average amount of common sense

also, half-orcs should have a +2 disguise bonus to appear human. this adds flavour, and makes sense from a Tolkien POV (the southerner was considered to be human for a long time, till the fledgeling fellowship set out and came to bree)

In LOTR, true orcs have alot of problems with being outdoors, but the half-orcs didnt have any problems.

also, i would say that fighter is the favoured class. i know this will start a debate, btu in Middle-earth, they were soldiers in Sarumons/Sarumans (sp? i am so tired right now . . .) army.

anyways, that is about all i have to say for now about this. summed up, heres how my version of the Tolkien-esqe Half-orc should look like:

I don't think that the Lord of the Rings is at all good as a reference standard for D&D orcs or half-orcs. Tolkien's orcs were smaller and weaker than men, in clear contradistinction to D&D orcs and half-orcs. They flourished in the same sort of tunnels as dwarves, and the 'huge orc-chieftain' who speared Frodo in the Chamber of Mazar-bul was 'almost man-high'. Also, though Tolkien is not explicit, every indication from his works is that his orcs were immune to old age and of indefinite lifespan.

The uruk-hai and Saruman's half-orcs were remarkable in that they were large enough to pass as men, strong enough to fight on a par with men, and able to face the light of day. Real orcs were smaller, and presented a military threat only owing to their huge numbers.

 

[Agback]

The idea behind avoiding +1/-1 ability adjustments is not allowing players to manage their initial stats so they gain a benefit, but recieve no penalty.

Starting stats thus:
15
14
13
12
10
8

And you have a race that gives +1 STR and -1 INT

You put your 15 into STR and your 13 into INT.

You have now managed your stats so that your race gains you a +1 to your STR bonus, but nothing happens to your INT bonus. You have recieved a bonus without incurring a penalty.

Until you reach level 4 and get a stat bonus.

 

[Agback]

Its not just half-orcs that suffer from, IMO, wrongly applied Cha penalty. For example, ever thought about playing a Genasi sorceror who draws their powers from their elemental heritage? Does it make sense that you'll suffer and be a weaker spellcaster because people don't trust you cause you're a genasi or are "withdrawn and aloof". Not at all.

Yep. Three stats in D&D are rendered problematical because they confound together abilities that realistically and in fantasy convention ought to be separate.

A D&D character can't be good with his hands without being athletic.

A D&D character can't be absent-minded or short-sighted if he is in touch with spirituality.

A D&D character can't have have a strong connection to sorcerous power without a striking presence and gift for getting on with people.

It's a problem.

 

[Jack Simth]

I would be more inclined to call it a game-design decision than an issue per se; making manual dexterity completely separate from athletically dodging blows pretty much requires that the stat be divided into two directions (more, for more subdivisions) which makes character creation take longer, and gives more stats that a class can do without - which means more available dump stats, and higher important stats overall. Seriously; what Sorceror isn't going to dump careful trapworking for dodging defense? Sorceror's can't really do that anyway; they don't have the skill-set for it. Likewise, if the Sorceror could dump social skills to increase spellcasting, how many wouldn't? And on, and on; the more such divisions you make into your primary stat listing, the less any individual stat is worth, mechanically, and the easier it is for a player to min/max their character for the specific things the player is after.... which could easily be detrimental to gameplay.

Of course, you could view the skills as mini-stats for just such divisions....

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd like to understand why the D&D elves are insane. The only people in the games I've been in who play them do so simply because they like elves. All the powergamers take human or dwarf. Someone else did this comparison already, but let's draw it out more:

* Elves get +2 dex, -2 con. Dwarves get +2 con, -2 cha. So, since those are considered equal transfers, using the standard algebraic rule if a=b, and b=c, then a=c, dex is equal to cha. Yet the d&d RAW says otherwise. But yet dwarves get to give it up for a physical stat, even though in general, a physical stat is worth twice as much as a mental stat. Winner: Dwarf

*Elves get low-light vision. Dwarves get darkvision. I've never, ever seen a DM present a situation where the extended range of low-light was useful. Darkvision, on the other hand, is awesome. Who needs a torch? Winner: Dwarf

*Elves can notice secret doors. Dwarves get stonecunning, which among others things, allows them to find high DC stone-traps. Winner: tie

*Elves get +2 search, spot, listen. Dwarves get +2 to craft stone and metal items. Winner: Elves (finally!)

*Elves get auto proficiencies with longsword, rapier, and bows. Great, as long as you're not playing a class that already grants this. Dwarves treat two very useful exotic weapons as martial. That's useful to any class. Winner: Dwarf

*Elves get immunity to sleep and +2 vs. enchantment. Dwarves get a bonus on saves against ALL magic, and against poison. Winner: Dwarf

*Elves move 30 feet. Dwarves move 20, but do so even in heavy armor. Winner: I'd say close enough to call a tie, but I'll give it to the elves.

*Dwarves get sturdiness. Elves have no answer to this. Dwarves get bonus to hit against goblinoids. Elves have no answer to this. Dwarves get an AC bonus against giants. Elves have no answer to this. Winner: Dwarf (X3)

Looks like the final score is 7 - 2 - 1 in favor of dwarves. Why are elves so insane again? And, sorry if I forgot any attributes. Don't have my books with me, just pulling info. from my memory.

 

[Nyaricus]

I don't think that the Lord of the Rings is at all good as a reference standard for D&D orcs or half-orcs. Tolkien's orcs were smaller and weaker than men, in clear contradistinction to D&D orcs and half-orcs. They flourished in the same sort of tunnels as dwarves, and the 'huge orc-chieftain' who speared Frodo in the Chamber of Mazar-bul was 'almost man-high'. Also, though Tolkien is not explicit, every indication from his works is that his orcs were immune to old age and of indefinite lifespan.

The uruk-hai and Saruman's half-orcs were remarkable in that they were large enough to pass as men, strong enough to fight on a par with men, and able to face the light of day. Real orcs were smaller, and presented a military threat only owing to their huge numbers.

Just a quick comment on this, i am actually about to head out the door to a D&D session; JRRT is the first guy to describe contemporary fantasy as is. He created most, if not all of the modern-day fantasy sterio-types that we now (as said before) take for granted.

That said, at the most basic level of comparing the standard D&D orc to a middle-earth orc is you take the uruk-hai's physicaly stature and the orcs from the misty mountains (more or less) and moria, through in a bit of german-esqe bits, stick em way up north, and WHAM-O, a D&D orc. Not satisfactory, IMHO.

anywho, i am going to enjoy a nights worth of entertainment in our second meet in our new campaign we are starting, and hopefully i am going to post it all in story hour. we shall see how it goes . . .

peace

 

[Felix]

This will only be exploted by powergamers and min-maxers

I don't think it's fair to call someone who uses the advantages that you build into a powergamer.

my statements stand

So does the tower of Piza, but not very well.

Until you reach level 4 and get a stat bonus.

How does this have anything to do with the potential benefit-without-penalty that a +1/-1 ability score adjustment does create?

Because you get something for nothing? Pfah! You survived to 4th level: "Congratulations, and good luck in your future endeavors." The costs of the ability level-up were paid before you got it. Same with feats and class abilities. That's why the more powerful abilities are at higher levels: you have to go through the earlier levels to get there.

 

[Agback]

How does this have anything to do with the potential benefit-without-penalty that a +1/-1 ability score adjustment does create?

Since ability increases with level come as +1s, not +2s, the benefit is not without penalty. True, the penalty may be delayed, but it is still there. If I had a +1 adjustment to my most important ability , and my best roll were even, I would put that best roll in the most-important slot anyway, with a view to getting an outstanding value sooner. I'd gladly give up a +1 ability modifier on an ability of secondary importance to get a +1 ability modifier from my most important ability at 4th instead of 8th, +2 at 12th instead of 16th, +3 at 20 instead of never at all. Sure, your minimaxer gets a +1 to some unimportant ability mod through levels 1 to 3, but I [eventually--at fourth level] get a +1 to my most important ability, and I'm going to use that a lot more.

And under point-buy systems, there is a benefit-without-penalty anyway. -2 to a low ability is worth -2 ability points, and +2 to a high stat is worth at least +6 ability points. That's good for +1 to each of two ability modifiers of secondary importance. That is, under a point-buy system an elf with 18, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8 can be worth the same points as a human with 18, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8. I wouldn't fuss about a potential gain of +1 and blink at a +2.

I just don't think that a +1/-1 pair of ability adjustments is all that abusive. Under point-buy is is the same as +2/-2 except less so. In the case of random-roll methods I think it is only even a potential abuse if the character's best roll is odd and he or she has a low roll that is also odd, and if the adjustments fall on just the right abilities. Suppose that you were building a fighter in a half-orc race with a +1 ST, -1 CHA, and you rolled 18, 15, 15, 12, 10, 8. You would take ST 19 CHA 7, not waste a 15 in CHA to get an 'abusive' 16 CON. Even with the default array this 'abuse' produces an advantage that vanishes at fourth level.

Finally, the supposed problem of odd ability scores would be even much diminished if ability enhancement items were available with odd modifiers, and to a maximum of say +5 instead of +6. This would, of course, mean that some magical items would be of less advantage to some characters than to others (perhaps even of no practical advantage in the case of +1 ability enhancement items) and that some would be able to get bonuses cheaper than others. But I think that that price would be worth paying to reduce the current small value of odd abilities scores. As is stands, a rule that seems designed to cope withteh problem of odd ability scores actually exacerbates that problem.