D&D 5E Flèche: Charge Attack For Light Fighters

[Clint_L]

Disadvantage against attackers is extremely potent. The math is complicated and varies a lot according to all kinds of factors, but imposing disadvantage is generally worth a minimum of +2.5 to AC, and sometimes significantly more. On top of that, it makes you virtually immune to suffering a critical hit from the attack (reducing them to a .2% likelihood). At low levels, and with a high AC like this feat would allow, the feat would make the character nearly invulnerable to typical melee foes. At the cost of a reaction, which is basically no cost 90% of the time for classes like a fighter. And then it gives you another attack at completely no cost, which is actually rolled into your opponent's action! And that attack does extra damage!

This is FAR better than the current Great Weapon Master; the math isn't even close. If this feat was in the game, you should 100% take it, along with the duelist style, and do a dex build, fighting at level 1 with chainmail, shield, and rapier.

You will have an AC 18, plus all melee attacks are at disadvantage (so you will virtually never suffer a critical hit), plus you will get your base attack (1d8+5) and most rounds a second attack at (1d8+1d6+5) damage. So a total of 22.5 average damage. And that's just off the "parry" ability!

Great weapon master: AC 16 with no disadvantage, so you are getting hit way more (depends on foe, but at least twice as often at low-mid tier play, plus you are way more likely to suffer a critical). Your base damage is (2d6+3), so an average of 10, with an option to risk -5 on your hit roll to get that to 20 average damage. Which is still less than what the rapier/parry combination gives on a typical round while offering extremely high defence!

Say you are fighting a goblin at level 1. Parry build as described in OP: it will need a 14+ to hit you, so rolling with disadvantage it has a 9% of hitting you and a .2% chance of scoring a critical. You attack back with a 91% chance of getting a second attack due to its miss, and hitting on a 10+, between the two attacks you will hit and likely kill it in the first round roughly 75-80% of the time. You're doing about 12.5 average damage per round in this fight.

GWM build: it will need a 12+ to hit you, so 40%, with a 5% chance of scoring a critical. You will not opt to even use GWM feat against a goblin, so you will have a 55% chance of hitting and likely killing it in the first round. You're doing 5.5 DPR (using the GWM feat in this scenario increases your DPR slightly, to 6, less than half what the parry/rapier build is giving, but is not worth it because goblins have so few HPs).

GWM build gives you much worse defence and significantly less offence. And we could run those numbers against, say, an ogre, where you might want to use the GWM feat, but you will still be doing less damage and taking WAY more.

Actually, let's do the ogre. This would be a very dangerous fight at level 1...but much less so for that parry build:

Parry build: Ogre hits you 20-ish% of the time, doing an average DPR of 2.6, with a .2% chance of a critical hit. So you now have a 70% chance of that extra attack. That gives you a main attack average
DPR of 7.2 and parry attack average of 6.8 for a total average DPR of 14 damage per round.

GWM build: Ogre hits you 55% of the time, so an average DPR of 7.2. If you do a regular attack, your DPR = 7.5. Using GWM, that goes up to 10 DPR. Still significantly behind what the rapier parry build is doing, at much higher risk! You're taking almost triple the damage to output roughly 40% less!

The concept of a parry/riposte system is cool, but those numbers need a lot of adjustment.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Oh! I might simplify the restrictions to “must only be wielding one handed weapons that are light, finesse, or defensive, and be wearing no, light, or medium, armor.”

It’s a fast, precise, and agile charge.

And I’ll go ahead and change the damage bonus to speed, to make it more feel like an especially fast charge. I also realized that I didn’t write up charge attack quite right, it is meant to give extra movement while restricting you freedom of movement. Perhaps it gives opportunity attacks advantage against you, as well, mean flèche neutralizes a downside rather than being a “big” bonus with its giving disad.

So,


Master Duelist

You are a master of personal combat with light and defensive weapons, whether skillfully deflecting attacks in a sudden defensive stance, using an enemy’s misstep against them, or swiftly and nimbly charging at a foe to throw them off balance.

You gain 2 manuevers dice, which can be used to power the manuevers listed below, or any other manuever you know.



Flèche
Light Fighting
When you make a charge attack, opportunity attacks against you have disadvantage, and you can spend a maneuver die to gain a bonus to your movement equal to 5 times the result of your maneuver die roll, and when you attack the target you can treat a die result of 18 or higher as a natural 20.

Parry
light fighting
As a reaction when targeted by an attack, you can grant yourself a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus that lasts until the start of your next turn.

Riposte
light fighter
When a melee attack against you misses, you can spend a maneuver die to grant yourself a bonus action attack that you can take on your turn against the attacker, with a damage bonus equal to the result of your manuever die.

————
Okay, I made the parry just be the existing defensive duelist but last until the start of your next turn, and the riposte uses your bonus action on your next turn.

Flèche has a fairly small bonus at-will, but the speed buff and crit buff require spending the maneuver die.

The light fighting tag means that you must be using only light armor, medium armor, or no armor, and weilding only one-handed weapons or double sided weapons which are light, finesse, or defensive. (Might drop the double weapons but it feels right to have them be treated like two weapons for stuff like this)

The only thing I’m dissatisfied with for duelists still is that there no reason to not have something in your off-hand.

My other concern is that maneuver dice currently come back with a long rest of you don’t have a special feature that lets you regain some quicker, so ultimately it might be best to split these into two feats and have more of the benefit be at-will in each feat, include weapon proficiencies.

Perhaps the feat should let you learn two light fighting manuvers, and give the defensive duelist bit and a minor boon for having a free hand.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Master Duelist
You are a master of the duel, wielding only a single light or finesse weapon, and only a defensive* weapon or shield alongside it.

While so armed, you gain 2 manuever dice which are d6s, and learn the following abilities:

These abilities have always been fairly limited in uses,

The point of comparison for this is the level 2 monk ability Patient Defense.

Not really.

This is much more powerful than that, and so, by itself, makes for an overpowered feat.

This doesn’t follow even if we accept the claim above it as a premise. Who says that a feat should be compared to one ability of three in a level two feature, that most folks agree could use a boost anyway?

If it required your Bonus action, without the riposte, and was limited to 2-3 times per long rest, it woudl still be an A-tier feat, and would be valuable to any melee

It’s literally limited to 1-2 times per day.
It’s also of no use to heavy fighters, except finesse sword and boarders.

This is fiddly in a couple of ways. Perhaps look at the Centaur (MotM) charge ability, and build it off of that:
Move 20' in a straight line, and your crit range for a melee attack is 18-20 (prof/long rest, if you need a limit). That will appeal to fighters, paladins, and rogues; possibly others.

Check my last revision.

Rather than an aspect of a weapon itself, I would roll this into proficiency with shields:

If you are proficient in shields, you may use any light weapon or large object in your hand to enhance your defense. you receive +1 AC (or damage resistance of your proficiency bonus). You may not attack with the object in a round in which you take the AC bonus. Using a weapon defensively in this way does not prevent the bonus damage form the duelling fighting style.

I get the idea, but it doesn’t do the point of the feat. It is locked to a type of fighting, and is no more restrictive than the Crusher feat.
It also doesn’t include defensive weapons, which as described in the OP are a new weapon property. I’m more likely to make shields somehow no count for light fighting than tie the feat to shields.

As indicated above, I think a charge built like the Centaur's ability is more straightforward to implement.

Did you take into account the Charge Attack special action, detailed toward the end of the OP?
I agree the wording needs work, but I’m 3 drafts in, so I’m fine with that for the moment.

Disadvantage against attackers is extremely potent. The math is complicated and varies a lot according to all kinds of factors, but imposing disadvantage is generally worth a minimum of +2.5 to AC, and sometimes significantly more. On top of that, it makes you virtually immune to suffering a critical hit from the attack (reducing them to a .2% likelihood). At low levels, and with a high AC like this feat would allow, the feat would make the character nearly invulnerable to typical melee foes. At the cost of a reaction, which is basically no cost 90% of the time for classes like a fighter. And then it gives you another attack at completely no cost, which is actually rolled into your opponent's action! And that attack does extra damage!

Well, the cost of a resource that the feat gives you two of per day. It says “spend a maneuver die to attack as part of the same reaction”.

Most of the criticism above is no longer relevant to the most recent draft, though, so I’ll move on other to say that the benefits of disadv on attacks against you are very familiar to me, and I disagree with the conclusion that it’s a huge deal. It’s a solid bonus. That’s it. Shield is stronger, most of the time.

This is FAR better than the current Great Weapon Master; the math isn't even close. If this feat was in the game, you should 100% take it, along with the duelist style, and do a dex build, fighting at level 1 with chainmail, shield, and rapier.

Nah. Even the first draft, which we have moved on from, wasn’t better than GWM with GW Fighting Style, heavy armor, and a greatsword. It just allows a light weapons and armor fighter actually stand up next to a GW fighter with access to feats.

You will have an AC 18, plus all melee attacks are at disadvantage (so you will virtually never suffer a critical hit), plus you will get your base attack (1d8+5) and most rounds a second attack at (1d8+1d6+5) damage. So a total of 22.5 average damage. And that's just off the "parry" ability!

Seriously, the fact that the riposte cost a die, that you have two of, is in the original post. In the text of the riposte.

Great weapon master: AC 16 with no disadvantage, so you are getting hit way more (depends on foe, but at least twice as often at low-mid tier play, plus you are way more likely to suffer a critical). Your base damage is (2d6+3), so an average of 10, with an option to risk -5 on your hit roll to get that to 20 average damage. Which is still less than what the rapier/parry combination gives on a typical round while offering extremely high defence!

And it’s all at-will, and you can take heavy armor master.

Say you are fighting a goblin at level 1. Parry build as described in OP: it will need a 14+ to hit you, so rolling with disadvantage it has a 9% of hitting you and a .2% chance of scoring a critical. You attack back with a 91% chance of getting a second attack due to its miss, and hitting on a 10+, between the two attacks you will hit and likely kill it in the first round roughly 75-80% of the time. You're doing about 12.5 average damage per round in this fight.

No, you’re doing the extra damage once, maybe twice, unless you’ve spent more character build resources to get manuvers and dice. Your analysis also ignores the possibility of other things to use a reaction on, and the bolded part confuses me. Do you mean attack back on your next turn plus the reaction (1-2 a day) attack? It doesn’t parse that way, but context suggests no other reasonable conclusion I can see.

GWM build: it will need a 12+ to hit you, so 40%, with a 5% chance of scoring a critical. You will not opt to even use GWM feat against a goblin, so you will have a 55% chance of hitting and likely killing it in the first round. You're doing 5.5 DPR (using the GWM feat in this scenario increases your DPR slightly, to 6, less than half what the parry/rapier build is giving, but is not worth it because goblins have so few HPs).

Did you forget the other bullet point in GWM, that makes it great against little guys that you almost never just fight one of? You also don’t seem to be calculating the average damage effect of rerolling one and twos, and since both are throwing the same chance to hit and 2 dice of damage, the fighter is at most behind by 3 points DPR, which is trivial.

GWM build gives you much worse defence and significantly less offence. And we could run those numbers against, say, an ogre, where you might want to use the GWM feat, but you will still be doing less damage and taking WAY more.

Actually, let's do the ogre.

Given that you seem to think the riposte is at-will, and are missing that the GWM build will be making an extra bonus action attack with every crit, etc, let’s don’t.

Thoughts? This is a very rough draft, but the basic shape of the idea is here.

Also this is in the OP. Just sayin.

 

[Clint_L]

My apologies. I missed that the riposte was limited to twice. It's still way too powerful. If the feat was just, "You can take the Dodge action as a reaction," it would be arguably the best combat feat in the game, and so strong that dex builds would be the best option for all melee. I think you severely underestimate how powerful being able to impose disadvantage is.

The other effect of great weapon master is not great against small foes - getting an extra attack on a crit or when you reduce an opponent to 0 has little effect on DPR. Let's say you're up against that goblin - you go from hitting it and killing it approximately 50% of the time to hitting and killing it approximately 25% of the time, but then getting a second attack. You're killing about the same number of goblins per round - you might get lucky and have a round where you get two, but you are also twice as likely to have rounds where you kill none. I suppose it might be fun if you are super high level and fighting super weak mobs but practically speaking it is not very powerful in fights that matter.

An extra attack when you crit is worth something like an extra 2.5% DPR, depending on how hard your target is to hit (against a target taking the dodge action, you will basically never trigger this effect). By far the biggest impact of GWM is in getting to use the -5/+10 when circumstances favour you, like when you have advantage on the attack (which is why barbarians love it), or it's a foe with a huge health pool but low AC.

And re-rolling 1&2s is both bad and not part of the feat, that's part of the fighting style. It depends on the weapon, but assuming a d12 (for simplicity's sake) it's worth less than 1 DPR.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

*Defensive is a new weapon trait which makes the weapon give +1 AC and have features something like “the weapon allows you to give yourself damage reduction equal to your proficiency bonus against weapon attacks as a bonus action”. Shields also have this trait, but retain their +2. I plan on making different main gouche give different benefits to feel different, and include targe, parrying dagger, cloak, punch dagger, sword-breaker, trident knife, maybe more.

A normal dagger is easier to dual-wield with than almost any of the described weapons/items. It makes no sense to restrict the ability on the basis of using a "defensive" weapon, given that. Also as a fencer LOL@trying to fleche whilst holding a bigass shield, that's silly but I guess you mean a buckler.

Also that's OP as a weapon trait. Continuous +1 AC is already good, and giving it the ability to be DR as well is seriously strong.

You are a master of the duel, wielding only a single light or finesse weapon, and only a defensive* weapon or shield alongside it.

Thus perhaps you should amend the above to:

You are a master of the duel, wielding only a single light or finesse weapon, and only a light or defensive* weapon or shield alongside it.

5E doesn't have bucklers or I'd suggest deleting shield and replacing it with that.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Not really.

Then we disagree. It'd not personal, dude. You asked for feedback.

This doesn’t follow even if we accept the claim above it as a premise. Who says that a feat should be compared to one ability of three in a level two feature, that most folks agree could use a boost anyway?

It seems we do agree your feat is way more powerful than the closest thing that exists in the game right now. Fine. Saying what already exists is underpowered is not persuasive.

Most of the criticism above is no longer relevant to the most recent draft, though, so I’ll move on

If you don't actually want feedback or meaningful engagement, please say so.

 

[Stormonu]

I think I'd probably do it as:

Master Duelist

• When fighting with a single-handed weapon and not using a shield, you add your Proficiency Bonus to your AC.
• You can take the Dash, (Dodge) or Disengage action as a bonus action
• If you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before making your first attack in a round, on a hit you treat it as a Critical Hit.

If that is too underpowered, have it add +1 Dex or +1 Str.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Master Duelist:

• When fighting with a single-handed weapon and your other hand is empty, you take the Dodge action as a bonus action,. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
• When you use the Dodge action, you can use your reaction when a creature within 5 ft attack you to parry the attack. Add one roll of your weapon damage die and add it to your AC. If this cause the attack to miss, you can make a single attack against the attacker.
• When you move at least 20 ft in a straight line, the next attack you make before the end of your turn scores a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then we disagree. It'd not personal, dude. You asked for feedback.

Who said it was?

It seems we do agree your feat is way more powerful than the closest thing that exists in the game right now. Fine. Saying what already exists is underpowered is not persuasive.

Not really. Patient defense isn’t a feature, it’s 1/4 of a feature. Ki and ki features is the feature.

And again, even if we accept your premise, which I do not, it wouldn’t matter, because a feat can’t be judged overpowered based on a part of a low level feature.

The fact that said feature is weak is a separate, but equally valid, reason to reject the comparison. Why should we care if a new thing overshadows an underpowered older thing?

If you don't actually want feedback or meaningful engagement, please say so.

If I didn’t, I would. Disagreeing with your feedback indicates no such thing. As you said, it isn’t personal, and I don’t know why you’re treating it as such.

I think I'd probably do it as:

Master Duelist

• When fighting with a single-handed weapon and not using a shield, you add your Proficiency Bonus to your AC.
• You can take the Dash, (Dodge) or Disengage action as a bonus action
• If you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before making your first attack in a round, on a hit you treat it as a Critical Hit.

If that is too underpowered, have it add +1 Dex or +1 Str.

One-handed weapon and no shield is good, though I think it also has to have an armor restriction, as the most recent draft does. That allows the classic longsword guy with a free hand image.

Dash dodge and disengage I’m not sure about, but I do like the idea.

Guaranteed crit once a round if you can set up a charge is interesting. I’m gonna have to sit with this a bit and let it percolate.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My apologies. I missed that the riposte was limited to twice.

I wouldn’t be so about it if it wasn’t right there in the text that tells you that you can riposte. It makes any feedback someone is giving me feel less useful, because they didn’t really read the damn thing.

It's still way too powerful. If the feat was just, "You can take the Dodge action as a reaction," it would be arguably the best combat feat in the game, and so strong that dex builds would be the best option for all melee. I think you severely underestimate how powerful being able to impose disadvantage is.

If this is this certain for you, I see no reason to keep arguing it. Especially since the most recent draft changed it anyway.

The other effect of great weapon master is not great against small foes - getting an extra attack on a crit or when you reduce an opponent to 0 has little effect on DPR. Let's say you're up against that goblin

I’m sorry but I’m not even going to read the rest. This is a really wild statement. It’s literally the best time to have the feat. It’s adding an additional attack with the highest damage weapon in the game, and will probably come up every time you hit a goblin. Having seen it in play many times, you are simply wrong.

- you go from hitting it and killing it approximately 50% of the time to hitting and killing it approximately 25% of the time, but then getting a second attack.

What the hell? Are you assuming the GWM has to be using the second bullet point as well (against goblins of all things) in order to be suing the first? If you mostly likely kill a gob with one hit…you don’t need +10 damage, but you probably do need more attacks because gobs are more often than not a horde enemy.

An extra attack when you crit is worth something like an extra 2.5% DPR, depending on how hard your target is to hit (against a target taking the dodge action, you will basically never trigger this effect). By far the biggest impact of GWM is in getting to use the -5/+10 when circumstances favour you, like when you have advantage on the attack (which is why barbarians love it), or it's a foe with a huge health pool but low AC.

When you have advantage, and thus much more likely to crit? Which happens vastly more often than attacking with disadvantage?

And re-rolling 1&2s is both bad and not part of the feat, that's part of the fighting style. It depends on the weapon, but assuming a d12 (for simplicity's sake) it's worth less than 1 DPR.

I didn’t say it was part of the damn feat my guy. Please read my posts fully before replying to them.

And we are not assuming a d12, because we have been comparing to the greatsword. So no.

You don’t get it. The fighting style (remember how we have been discussing builds, not just the feat by itself in a vacuum?) makes the first part of the feat more likely by making low damage rolls much less likely. Against smaller critters, the two things together smash through enemies like a blender through bananas.

And just please, if you’re going to continue, look at the latest draft? It is utterly pointless to keep discussing the first draft, multiple drafts in.

A normal dagger is easier to dual-wield with than almost any of the described weapons/items. It makes no sense to restrict the ability on the basis of using a "defensive" weapon, given that. Also as a fencer LOL@trying to fleche whilst holding a bigass shield, that's silly but I guess you mean a buckler.

I describe what defensive weapons are in the OP.

Also that's OP as a weapon trait. Continuous +1 AC is already good, and giving it the ability to be DR as well is seriously strong.

Okay it’s not even a rough draft it’s a basic concept I don’t care right now about the weapon properties that I haven’t even written out in any usable form yet.

Thus perhaps you should amend the above to:

You are a master of the duel, wielding only a single light or finesse weapon, and only a light or defensive* weapon or shield alongside it.

great idea.

5E doesn't have bucklers or I'd suggest deleting shield and replacing it with that.

Oh no it’s sucks that a product that is adding new weapons can’t…add a new…type of shield…wait.

I s2g I feel like I’m gettin feedback by about half people actually reading and engaging, and half people walking by on the street and glancing over without slowing down. I’ve posted entire class writeups on these forums and gotten fewer comments from folks who clearly didn’t read something in the OP.

Latest draft for those who refuse to scroll up.

Master Duelist

You are a master of personal combat with light and defensive weapons, whether skillfully deflecting attacks in a sudden defensive stance, using an enemy’s misstep against them, or swiftly and nimbly charging at a foe to throw them off balance.

You gain 2 manuevers dice, which can be used to power the manuevers listed below, or any other manuever you know.



Flèche
Light Fighting
When you make a charge attack, opportunity attacks against you have disadvantage, and you can spend a maneuver die to gain a bonus to your movement equal to 5 times the result of your maneuver die roll, and when you attack the target you can treat a die result of 18 or higher as a natural 20.

Parry
light fighting
As a reaction when targeted by an attack, you can grant yourself a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus that lasts until the start of your next turn.

Riposte
light fighter
When a melee attack against you misses, you can spend a maneuver die to grant yourself a bonus action attack that you can take on your turn against the attacker, with a damage bonus equal to the result of your manuever die.

Now, one thing hat isn’t clear in flèche is that everything after “spend a die” requires you to spend that die. If I were to split this into two feats, he crit bene would probably become at-will, but as is it really shouldn’t be. Also it’s weird when game mechanics make it some someone is also finding some way to charge every round.

I’m not gonna worry much about wording until the mechanical ideas are where I want them, though.