Flail, Holy Symbol, Ki Focus, Totem expertise - what should they do?

[DEFCON 1]

Usually the shtick for the chain weapons (like flails / spiked chains) was making it easier to trip people. I dunno what kind of balancing would be required to making knocking people prone a viable additive to a flail attack... but that'd be the shtick that I'd stick with.

 

[brehobit]

Usually the shtick for the chain weapons (like flails / spiked chains) was making it easier to trip people. I dunno what kind of balancing would be required to making knocking people prone a viable additive to a flail attack... but that'd be the shtick that I'd stick with.

Not sure what exactly makes for a "grab" attack, though I like the idea. On the trip thing
"when you get a critical hit with a melee attack and the target is no more than one size larger than you, you can knock them prone."

Humm, seems a bit weak. Maybe trip when you attack a dazed or stunned character?

 

[WalterKovacs]

How about:

If you would slide (push, or pull) the target as part of an attack with the flail, you can choose to knock the enemy prone instead.

There are a few slide powers tied explicitly to flails, and there are a few weapon wielding classes with slide powers (if you include push and pull even more), and there are also at-will powers that knock prone, so the trade off of forced movement vs. knocking prone should be balanced. Seems like it may have been something from one of the arena fighting styles actually.

 

[RangerWickett]

How about:

If you would slide (push, or pull) the target as part of an attack with the flail, you can choose to knock the enemy prone instead.

There are a few slide powers tied explicitly to flails, and there are a few weapon wielding classes with slide powers (if you include push and pull even more), and there are also at-will powers that knock prone, so the trade off of forced movement vs. knocking prone should be balanced. Seems like it may have been something from one of the arena fighting styles actually.

Tripping every round is bloody obnoxious. Especially if you're using a whip, and thus have reach. They fall down and are 10 ft. away from you. When they stand up they can't attack, because you're out of range, and they can't charge, because you're too close.

 

[IanB]

I think for flails I'd go for +1/+2/+3 damage when used for close attacks, maybe, make flails the niche weapon for melee attacks that hit a bunch of people.

 

[Herschel]

Usually the shtick for the chain weapons (like flails / spiked chains) was making it easier to trip people. I dunno what kind of balancing would be required to making knocking people prone a viable additive to a flail attack... but that'd be the shtick that I'd stick with.

This is my thought too, maybe knock target prone when hitting with an opportunity attack. That would make it hella-sweet for non-Swordmage defenders or maybe even make spiked chain an option for them. Headsman's Chop would become a much more useful feat option also.

 

[ravenheart]

Re: Flail Expertise

Proning, immobilizing and grabbing seems abusable and unnecessarily complicated in my ears.

How about gaining the reach property (or +1 reach if the weapon already has reach) and ignoring cover/superior cover when using the flail with a melee attack with the weapon keyword?

Would make normal falils nasty and whips/chained spikes really, really nasty.

Re: Tome Expertise

Tricker. My thoughts go to some form of magical protection or shield surrounding the caster. Maybe a general bonus to saving throws? Or some minimal damage resistance (1 per tier)?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Re: Flail Expertise

Proning, immobilizing and grabbing seems abusable and unnecessarily complicated in my ears.

How about gaining the reach property (or +1 reach if the weapon already has reach) and ignoring cover/superior cover when using the flail with a melee attack with the weapon keyword?

Would make normal falils nasty and whips/chained spikes really, really nasty.

Re: Tome Expertise

Tricker. My thoughts go to some form of magical protection or shield surrounding the caster. Maybe a general bonus to saving throws? Or some minimal damage resistance (1 per tier)?

The easiest way to balance would be to copy existing ideas. Reach is powerful ... it's enough to count as an extra +1 to hit, or larger die, or high crit, etc ... in terms of weapon design.

The ability to ignore cover makes sense (it can go around corners), so maybe ignore cover and concealment, the latter being because since you aren't swinging with a rigid weapon, you are more likely to hit a "fuzzy" target. Not superior cover or total concealment, since it's not really going to go through a door, or reach through an arrow slit, and swinging blind is still swinging blind.

Another option would be a conditional damage boost ... close burst weapon attacks or multiple target melee attacks (that don't require two weapons), to go with the idea of swinging it around.

As for the tome, maybe it gives a shield bonus like rod expertise?

 

[ravenheart]

The easiest way to balance would be to copy existing ideas. Reach is powerful ... it's enough to count as an extra +1 to hit, or larger die, or high crit, etc ... in terms of weapon design.

The ability to ignore cover makes sense (it can go around corners), so maybe ignore cover and concealment, the latter being because since you aren't swinging with a rigid weapon, you are more likely to hit a "fuzzy" target. Not superior cover or total concealment, since it's not really going to go through a door, or reach through an arrow slit, and swinging blind is still swinging blind.

Another option would be a conditional damage boost ... close burst weapon attacks or multiple target melee attacks (that don't require two weapons), to go with the idea of swinging it around.

As for the tome, maybe it gives a shield bonus like rod expertise?

Well, I felt flails needed some love (maybe only make it reach, so whips and spiked chains don't get too powerful), and I wanted to make a melee analogue to the Crossbow and Wand Expertise feats, but I can see your point - we don't need three feats with the same benefit (even if it is for three different types of weapons/implements).

Concealment is a moot point when it comes to close attacks, though, and I can't really grasp how you'd have a greater chance at striking something you are having difficulties perceiving just by flailing about (pun intended). Although, after having said that, it does seem more plausible.

As for the tome, see my point about the same benefits for different types (especially since there is already an implement like that). Something boosting zones and conjurations cast through the tome?

While we're on the topic, what a bout the pick??

 

[captainspud]

I started working on this a while back for my group's use-- wherever possible I tried to piggyback on existing expertise effects:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...kUdGlPUlBzdmtyNlpUc1lYdXpwT1psaHc&output=html

Blue are new effects or new uses of an old effect.