Flaming Bat, Man!

[Orryn Emrys]

Had our first 4E session last night, and I noted that, whereas I feel that I have a decent grasp of the new combat rules, a couple of details made me scratch my head. I might be able to comb the books to find the answers, but I thought someone out there might know off the top of their head(s).

Item 1:

Party encountered a fire bat. Its primary attack power includes ongoing fire damage 5. It hit three PCs on the final round of combat... presumable "setting them on fire". Then it was slain. Encounter was over. Using the rule as I understood it, the PCs taking ongoing damage were required to make a saving throw at the end of their individual "turns", after taking damage at the beginning. This went on for a couple of rounds after the fight was over and no other "actions" were being taken, since they kept rolling badly on saves.

Now I allowed them a bonus for taken the opportunity to focus on trying to put themselves out, and a further bonus from one other PC for each of them to Aid Another. I don't see as this would be supported by the rules, but I felt silly simply dealing 5 damage to them every round while they stood there failing their saves and everyone else hung out and watched.

Any thoughts?

Item 2:

Party encountered an unconcscious man on the verge of death. The cleric wanted to use his Healing Word power, which allows the subject to use a Healing Surge and regain an additional 1d6 or whatever HP... I don't have the book with me. Oh... and the cleric's bonus to healing-keyword powers, which for him was like a +3. So, here's the quandry:

The text seems to read that the subject must have an available Healing Surge to benefit from this power... and that appears to include the bonus HP, both that granted as part of Healing Word and the cleric's bonus. This appears to be the case for a number of healing powers. So a wounded man whose used up his healing surges (assuming he had any) cannot be healed in this fashion, correct?

Since I didn't want to penalize their genuine desire to help the man, I gave him back a few HP for it anyway. As it is, this was the very first thing that happened to the party in their very first 4E session... I just didn't want to so potently draw the line between editions right then, demonstrating that their cleric was entirely incapable of doing the things that he could have in 3E. I mean, it's bound to happen... but we're still adjusting to the rules. I don't want the experience tainted by some misunderstanding of the rules.

So...?

 

[Vanuslux]

I say never be afraid to bend the rules or simply make them up if it's called for, so long as you're not doing it to screw the characters over.

 

[Kordeth]

\Now I allowed them a bonus for taken the opportunity to focus on trying to put themselves out, and a further bonus from one other PC for each of them to Aid Another. I don't see as this would be supported by the rules, but I felt silly simply dealing 5 damage to them every round while they stood there failing their saves and everyone else hung out and watched.

Any thoughts?

Unless otherwise specified, all effects have a duration of "till the end of the encounter." Once the encounter ends, the fire is put out automatically.

Item 2:

Party encountered an unconcscious man on the verge of death. The cleric wanted to use his Healing Word power, which allows the subject to use a Healing Surge and regain an additional 1d6 or whatever HP... I don't have the book with me. Oh... and the cleric's bonus to healing-keyword powers, which for him was like a +3. So, here's the quandry:

The text seems to read that the subject must have an available Healing Surge to benefit from this power... and that appears to include the bonus HP, both that granted as part of Healing Word and the cleric's bonus. This appears to be the case for a number of healing powers. So a wounded man whose used up his healing surges (assuming he had any) cannot be healed in this fashion, correct?

Correct. You'd need a paladin to lay on hands (using one of his own surges) or the cleric would need to cast cure light wounds or one of its higher-level variants.

Since I didn't want to penalize their genuine desire to help the man, I gave him back a few HP for it anyway. As it is, this was the very first thing that happened to the party in their very first 4E session... I just didn't want to so potently draw the line between editions right then, demonstrating that their cleric was entirely incapable of doing the things that he could have in 3E. I mean, it's bound to happen... but we're still adjusting to the rules. I don't want the experience tainted by some misunderstanding of the rules.

So...?

Why did the man have no healing surges? NPCs have very few ways to spend them (only PCs can use second wind), so unless he was beaten up, healed by a wandering cleric, and then beaten up again, he should have had his healing surge still. This is really an encounter design thing, not a rules thing: if you want the PCs to be able to heal the wounded man when they come across him, make sure he has a healing surge. Presumably you wouldn't be rolling his death save for every single 6 seconds of game time that elapsed between his injury and when the PCs found him, so why would you stick him in there with no healing surge?

 

[rjs]

Travis, do you have a page reference for effects (specifically for those negated by a save) expiring at the end of the encounter? A quick look didn't turn anything up.


However, for things like ongoing damage, don't forget that a DC 15 Heal check from an ally triggers a new saving throw or grants a +2 bonus to a saving throw. Depending on the size of the party and the number of characters suffering ongoing damage, the saving throw is pretty much automatic at a certain point.

 

[Cryptos]

Unless otherwise specified, all effects have a duration of "till the end of the encounter." Once the encounter ends, the fire is put out automatically.

Yes. Just assume that once the encounter is over, the characters have the opportunity to stop, drop and roll. Post-encounter is a rest period, unless you throw another encounter at them immediately. Unless they're going to calmly sit down to catch their breath and drink coffee while they're on fire, just assume they've done the Dick Van Dyke.

 

[Orryn Emrys]

Unless otherwise specified, all effects have a duration of "till the end of the encounter." Once the encounter ends, the fire is put out automatically.

Thank you. That makes sense.

Correct. You'd need a paladin to lay on hands (using one of his own surges) or the cleric would need to cast cure light wounds or one of its higher-level variants.

Yeah... we're still learning. The paladin didn't think of his Lay on Hands ability until later in the evening, when he noticed that it would use one his own Healing Surges.

Why did the man have no healing surges? NPCs have very few ways to spend them (only PCs can use second wind), so unless he was beaten up, healed by a wandering cleric, and then beaten up again, he should have had his healing surge still. This is really an encounter design thing, not a rules thing: if you want the PCs to be able to heal the wounded man when they come across him, make sure he has a healing surge. Presumably you wouldn't be rolling his death save for every single 6 seconds of game time that elapsed between his injury and when the PCs found him, so why would you stick him in there with no healing surge?

I'm still not sure where I stand on some of this. The party has a couple of NPCs traveling with them... I went ahead and wrote them up, statistically, as Player Characters. Is that really not the way its supposed to work?

As for your query regarding the man in question... I'm actually converting War of the Burning Sky. We happened to have a party of 3.5 characters that converted fairly well, and they're only 3rd level. In the second adventure, there's an encounter (with a man who is alive only because of the magic of the creature inhabiting the fire forest. Inhabitants who die from the fire don't ever truly expire... so he'd been "dead" for a while. And the man in question was a student from the wizards school in Gate Pass, where one of the PCs also attended... so it seemed like he might also have been "PC" quality.) I'm not seeking a perfect conversion. Frankly, I don't intend to be limited in what I can include in the game by what I can find a rule to support... But I want to make sure I understand the rules as they are written, and what I might be missing.

I appreciate your advice (criticism?)... *bows respectfully*

 

[Orryn Emrys]

However, for things like ongoing damage, don't forget that a DC 15 Heal check from an ally triggers a new saving throw or grants a +2 bonus to a saving throw. Depending on the size of the party and the number of characters suffering ongoing damage, the saving throw is pretty much automatic at a certain point.

Whether the end-of-the-encounter thing is correct or not, THIS would be a very good thing for me to remember. My thanks.

 

[balard]

If you are healed and you are out of surges, you get only 1 hp back if the heal made you spend some.

 

[Kordeth]

Travis, do you have a page reference for effects (specifically for those negated by a save) expiring at the end of the encounter? A quick look didn't turn anything up.

Hmm--you're right, actually, I misremembered. Sustainable powers can be maintained 5 minutes (so effectively to the end of the encounter), but there's no explicit duration cap on conditional durations. My bad.

I'm still not sure where I stand on some of this. The party has a couple of NPCs traveling with them... I went ahead and wrote them up, statistically, as Player Characters. Is that really not the way its supposed to work?

Depends, really. Are these DM PCs added to the group to fill out needed slots in the party? If so, you could probably stat them up as PCs. If they're just characters traveling with the party (the old wizard they're escorting or a guide they hired to lead them through the forest) then no, they aren't intended to be statted up as PCs in 4E. 4E draws a very distinct line between the heroes of the story (the PCs) and everyone else. NPCs aren't supposed to get the same special treatment (like second wind or the negative hp buffer) that PCs do.

<War of the Burning Sky Spoilers>

There's no such thing as "PC quality." 4E takes a more gamist/narrativist approach to NPC design. This guy was an injured extra on the side of the road, there (presumably) to give the PCs advice and nothing else. He's certainly not a major factor in the story, and the only NPCs who should even consider getting the special "like a PC treatment" are the major antagonists.

This guy was not a PC and was not a major character, so he would be unable to use second wind and probably should have had a healing surge--assuming you wanted the players to be able to patch him up.

 

[Obryn]

NPCs have 1/2/3 healing surges, depending on what Tier they are.

NPCs can also use the Second Wind option, per the NPC section in the DMG.

As for peasants and long-term injuries, I'd just say use your judgement. Neither are described in game terms, so you're not even potentially breaking anything. Let them do their good deed.

-O