D&D 4E Flanking in 4e for CA - not really flanking is it ?

[Istar]

Flanking in 4e is a lie really isnt it.

because when you flank someone you are on their side.

ie. Next to a horse, you stand next to it you are on a flank.

An enemy unit attacks the main battle from the side, they are "Flanking" it !!

4e "Flanking" is not this.

Flanking in 4e is attacking from behind the enemy.

Its more "Backattacking" than flanking, despiet the creature at the front then also getting Flanking and CA.

THis makes an incy wincy bit of difference to the Rogue.
Because when he then decided to "Backattack" he finds himself on the side of the enemy, and open to line of site attacks from the cloth wearers and pretty much anyone who feels they would like to have a go at them.

How do Rogues deal with this ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

... what?

4E, like 3.5 before it and, with a couple of exceptions, 3E as well, eschews the concept of 'facing' in combat. It's assumed that someone involved in a combat is in motion, and does their best to keep opponents in view by turning, looking around, etc.

'Flanking' is a rules-mechanical term with a rules-mechanical definition, which doesn't necessarily equate exactly to the English definition, in the same way that someone using the Walk action isn't necessarily walking in a strict English sense, or might in a state an English speaker would consider 'weakened' without actually possessing the Weakened condition.

If you and an ally are adjacent and opposite to an enemy, you are Flanking him in the rules-mechanical sense. You have Combat Advantage. Whether you're behind, beside, or in front of him is a matter of flavour, not mechanics - you might be in front of him, and the Combat Advantage is because your ally provides a distraction at a key moment; or you might be behind him, and the Combat Advantage is because your ally is holding his attention in front; or you might both be to either side (flanking in the English sense), gaining CA by coordinating your movements to confuse his defenses.

The flavour is flexible, and is not restricted to a strict English reading of the label they've given the mechanic.

-Hyp.

 

[Gruns]

I've read it 6 or 7 times now, and am still not sure what is being said...

Were you trying to explain why, when two allies are beside(on either side of) an enemy it isn't really flanking him? I don't get it...

 

[Istar]

... what?

4E, like 3.5 before it and, with a couple of exceptions, 3E as well, eschews the concept of 'facing' in combat. It's assumed that someone involved in a combat is in motion, and does their best to keep opponents in view by turning, looking around, etc.

'Flanking' is a rules-mechanical term with a rules-mechanical definition, which doesn't necessarily equate exactly to the English definition, in the same way that someone using the Walk action isn't necessarily walking in a strict English sense, or might in a state an English speaker would consider 'weakened' without actually possessing the Weakened condition.

If you and an ally are adjacent and opposite to an enemy, you are Flanking him in the rules-mechanical sense. You have Combat Advantage. Whether you're behind, beside, or in front of him is a matter of flavour, not mechanics - you might be in front of him, and the Combat Advantage is because your ally provides a distraction at a key moment; or you might be behind him, and the Combat Advantage is because your ally is holding his attention in front; or you might both be to either side (flanking in the English sense), gaining CA by coordinating your movements to confuse his defenses.

The flavour is flexible, and is not restricted to a strict English reading of the label they've given the mechanic.



-Hyp.

Excellent, cheers for that, brilliantly explained.

Thanks

 

[keterys]

If it helps to think of it, because the person has to split their concentration between both enemies, they're effectively with their side to both, hence they're both flanking.

-^-
a@b

Ie, a + b are flanking @ and ^ is the direction he's "facing".

I haven't met anyone before this that cared, though, cause the flanking rules pretty much have always been approved in 3e + 4e.

 

[bganon]

While the "flank" of a creature is its "side", the term "flanking maneuver" has a long history in military use, where it often means "an attack from both sides." This is pretty much the same way "flanking" works in D&D. See:

Flanking maneuver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Eldorian]

Huh? Flank, the noun, and flank, the verb, have, necessarily, different definitions.
Flank:
1. To protect or guard the flank of.
2. To menace or attack the flank of.
3. To be placed or situated at the flank or side of: Two stone lions flanked the entrance.
4. To put (something) on each side of: flanked the driveway with tall shrubs.

To attack the side: If you have two guys, one on each side of you, you don't face either, because turning your back to an armed opponent for any length of time is a death sentence.