Flat Healing Without Using a Surge--Infinite Daily HP?

[Nail]

It's nice to know that other people agree with me that Healing Surges should be significant at Epic tier.

I *think* Healing Surges are supposed to be significant all the way to when your PC makes his final ride into the sunset.


...but then again, I've not played into the Epic Tier. Heck, I've not even played in the Heroic Tier. It might be - maybe - that getting free healing out of combat is No Big Deal(tm).

I suspect that such is *not* the case, but still.....


Moving along: are there other PC powers that allow the party to skip Healing Surges out of combat? Healing Word allows you to save Healing Surges, but not skip them entirely like Sunburst. Others? How 'bout in the Warlord class?

 

[Ydars]

Majoru; Hi

Perhaps I didn't explain myself that well; it has been known

What I mean about 4E promoting metagaming is this; what do HP represent in 4E? Different things in different circumstances because a PC can heal ALL HP after a six hour rest naturally, yet loss of all of them can clearly kill you. So what do they represent in the real world? People have suggested they represent a combination of luck/fatigue and morale but who ever heard of a sword that just damaged these things? So it is harder to play the game without tripping all over these meta-game concepts because they get in the way you portray your character. I know the way many people play D&D and other RPGs mean that this will not arise because as I define it, they spend the whole time metagaming.

I am not knocking 4E for the sake of it; I actually like the game but it raises alot of flags of disbelief for the players and the DM and I was pointing out that the fluff gives no real explanation for many of the gamist elements of 4E; it is a heck of a game nonetheless. Hell; I wish WoTC had gone the whole hog with the hero thing and stated that PCs are all like they are in Exalted; very powerful and with a spark of the divine in them that means they heal phenomenally quickly. I would prefer that a story explanaed this strange powers rather than just leaving them as bare mechanics. I mean I know that divine challenge deals damage if you attack anyone but the Paladin, but why and how?

Once you have problems with a baseline concept like HP, what are healing surges? Why are some powers only usable once per day (once per encounter is fine; there are some obvious reasons) but once per day for martial powers makes NO sense. I understand it is for game balance, but how does the player of a fighter justify this metaconcepts' effect on his character?

You also talked about Immersion. I don't think you understand my use of that word. I mean game sessions that are so compelling and so vivid that when the game is over, you are almost shocked to "be back in your own body". Immersion for me means that you connect with the story on a visceral/emotional level, not just the intellectual level that most people seem to game on.

You literally have forgotten everything but your character and the adventure and you really were "there". Everything that breaks immersion this makes the game far less fun and in a immersion game, the players and DM try not to mention the rules AT all; you still play by the rules, but there is NO discussion of them at the table and dice rolls are done discreetly or else all by the DM.

I know lots of people have never gamed like this or had such an experience and I can only say that I feel sorry for them, because it is THE greatest gaming experience there is, at least for me. Many people think they would be uncomfortable gaming like this, but when they actually are there they can't believe it. I am not describing it very well, but you know you have got to it when experience points don't matter, treasure doesn't matter, power doesn't matter only story and character matter.

 

[Rystil Arden]

They are divorced from healing surges. Am I wrong? The allow very large amounts of healing.

They are indeed divorced from surges, but if it's daily, though, it will only happen once per day, so it's still a limited amount and surges still matter. So as long as it's limited like that, it's quite fine. That's why I suggested putting a daily limit on the healing (Frex, make it so you can only be healed by Sunburst a number of times per day equal to the Cleric's Cha bonus). Fixes it like a charm.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Again a problem that is based on the assumption that the DM is a monkey cursed with donkey players.

If a PC ask me if he can use Sunburst to heal between fight, I just tell him no. If he needs fluff, I'll just point out that sunburts is a divine intercession on the charcter's behalf when he is in peril. The cleric is too respectful (or fearful) to ask such direct and powerful assistance when it's not required. If he throws a fit, I kick him out. The later never happened of course. Once in a blue moon, one of my players think up something silly like what is suggested in this thread but if he bothers suggesting it, the groans at the table from both me and the other players is enough to lay the matter to rest.

And that's a fine way to play Sunburst in your game, but it's Oberoni's Fallacy to state that there is no problem with it just because you could Rule 0 it. It's an excuse to defend a bad rule that should have said something else in the first place.

 

[Rel]

I am dumber (if that is possible) for reading this thread.

So dumb that you've forgotten how to politely disagree? If so I suggest you go read some of the threads you think will make you smart enough to comply with the rules again.

 

[Nail]

Looking at Sunburst along with all of the other Cleric powers.....it really looks like it should say:

"Effect: You and each ally in the burst can spend a healing surge and make a saving throw. Add your Charisma modifier to the hit points gained."

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Civil Law is hundred of times more voluminous than a D&D rule book and it still leads to occasionnal absurd interpretation.

It takes a judge to say to the people bringing up the absurd suit : Your cause has no merit.

Which then goes into jurisprudence.

This is a very young game. It still has no jurisprudence. Thankfully the judges... I mean DMs, are not monkeys and so there is no problem.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I *think* Healing Surges are supposed to be significant all the way to when your PC makes his final ride into the sunset.


...but then again, I've not played into the Epic Tier. Heck, I've not even played in the Heroic Tier. It might be - maybe - that getting free healing out of combat is No Big Deal(tm).

I suspect that such is *not* the case, but still.....


Moving along: are there other PC powers that allow the party to skip Healing Surges out of combat? Healing Word allows you to save Healing Surges, but not skip them entirely like Sunburst. Others? How 'bout in the Warlord class?

Can't find any that aren't Daily or require bashing things.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Looking at Sunburst along with all of the other Cleric powers.....it really looks like it should say:

"Effect: You and each ally in the burst can spend a healing surge and make a saving throw. Add your Charisma modifier to the hit points gained."

That would be nice. And much stronger unless it was being exploited to circumvent surges, too (since it is likely to heal in the upper 40s with that wording).

 

[SlagMortar]

For those saying Sunburst is not that effective as an infinite healing mechanism:
-- I would say healing the party to full in 1 hour is a big deal.

For those saying the DM can tell the player not to do it:
-- That's true, but wouldn't it be better if the DM didn't have to? And what if the DM doesn't think of that and then throws out the idea of ever using encounters to wear down the PCs? Is there an advantage to having powers that heal without healing surges? If these healing powers are not intended for use outside of combat, why not have those powers grant temporary hit points instead? (btw, do temporary hit points go away at the end of encounters now, or how are they handled?)

For those saying epic characters should be allowed infinite healing
-- I agree that making hit points an entirely per encounter resource isn't that big a deal. 3E wands of cure light wounds basically already did it and it didn't really break anything. (aside: I suppose that could be because most parties rested after blowing their big spells so hit points were never the limiting factor.) Also, having healing surges per day for heroic and paragon tiers and then per encounter for epic tiers would help make the epic tier 'feel' much different from the previous tiers. However, assuming the healing surges are supposed to be a per day resource at all tiers, it seems silly to include any powers that break that.