Flat Skills rolls - I hate them so I change them. Is this fair?

[Spatzimaus]

An alternative in both cases may be to roll the check, and have the check act as the PCs AC against the AoO's that their action triggers.

IMC we do something similar but not exact. We want to keep something of the person's original AC, instead of replacing it entirely with the skill result. It's sort of like the analog of Fighting Defensively, where you spend more effort dodging and weaving and less time paying attention to your offense. Your AC should always be higher in this situation than the rest of the time.

When you want to cast defensively, you make a Concentration check, DC 10+spell level (not 15+level). For each two points you beat the DC by, you get +1 dodge AC against AoOs or Readied actions taken against that spell.

Let's say you're a 5th-level Wizard (8 ranks of Concentration, CON 12) who just learned Fireball and wants to cast it defensively.
You roll vs. DC 13 with a +9 Concentration modifier. If you get a 12 or lower (on a 1, 2, or 3) you lose the spell. If you get a 13 or 14 you keep the spell, but don't get any extra AC. 15-16 gives +1 AC, and so on up the line. An average roll (10) would give +3 AC. If you roll a natural 20 (giving a 29 total) that'd be a +8 AC, except that we play the +10/-10 thing so a natural 20 would give a 39, for a +13 AC.

To me, this is preferable to the 3E situation, where 40% of the time you'd lose the spell and the other 60 you'd be immune to AoOs.

Also note the "or Readied actions" part. It helps balance it a bit, and frankly a readied action to hit when the target casts isn't much different than an AoO.

 

[Pickaxe]

Although I think some of the suggested alternatives are interesting and balanced, I don't see any problem with the original suggestion of adding BAB of all attackers threatening the space. In fact, I use the same rule, but with 15 as a base.

BAB does *not* outstrip tumbling. Anyone can add one to their tumble check at each level, and, for those that have it as a class skill, they can have three ranks beyond their level, plus dexterity and synergy bonuses, even Skill Focus. At best, BAB goes up one per level. Other modifiers, such as strength and feats, will *not* modify the tumble DC, because they are not part of BAB. Yes, it makes tumbling more difficult, but tumbling through an area that can be attacked by multiple enemies is *supposed* to be difficult and should be a remarkable accomplishment of only the most skilled tumblers. And the most dangerous/skilled attackers should have the best chance of successfully getting an AoO on a tumbler.

Feats like expertise and mobility already make it less dangerous to fail a tumble check, and most creatures only have one attack of opportunity per round in the first place, so I don't see why increasing the DC of this skill is so unbalancing or unfair.

--Axe

 

[Ravellion]

BAB does *not* outstrip tumbling. Anyone can add one to their tumble check at each level, and, for those that have it as a class skill, they can have three ranks beyond their level, plus dexterity and synergy bonuses, even Skill Focus. At best, BAB goes up one per level. Other modifiers, such as strength and feats, will *not* modify the tumble DC, because they are not part of BAB. Yes, it makes tumbling more difficult, but tumbling through an area that can be attacked by multiple enemies is *supposed* to be difficult and should be a remarkable accomplishment of only the most skilled tumblers. And the most dangerous/skilled attackers should have the best chance of successfully getting an AoO on a tumbler.

Prolblem is that if you want to tumble cross closs, with this rule you just shouldn't bother.

I use reflex saves vs. Tumble roll IMC. I know it breaks precedent, but it works really well.

 

[Pickaxe]

Prolblem is that if you want to tumble cross closs, with this rule you just shouldn't bother.

Why is this a problem? If you're tumbling cross-class, it ought to be harder for you. And you can still add Dex, Skill Focus, and synergy bonuses. The real problem is that most cross-class tumblers aren't going to want to spend two points on maxing ranks in Tumble. As it is, everyone takes at least one rank in Tumble, and many characters wil take 5, even cross class, when they can. That means a 6th level character, under the current rules, can have at least a 50/50 chance of avoiding AoO on any threatened space, even as a cross-class tumbler. The current tumble rules encourage every character to try to tumble. The BAB modifier gives one pause when facing a tough opponent.

--Axe

 

[Ravellion]

Why is this a problem? If you're tumbling cross-class, it ought to be harder for you. And you can still add Dex, Skill Focus, and synergy bonuses. The real problem is that most cross-class tumblers aren't going to want to spend two points on maxing ranks in Tumble. As it is, everyone takes at least one rank in Tumble, and many characters wil take 5, even cross class, when they can. That means a 6th level character, under the current rules, can have at least a 50/50 chance of avoiding AoO on any threatened space, even as a cross-class tumbler. The current tumble rules encourage every character to try to tumble. The BAB modifier gives one pause when facing a tough opponent.

--Axe

Don't get me wrong - I don't think the current rules are good at all. However completely making cross class tumbling impossible against all opponents but blind kobolds seems like a bad idea.

Perhaps a DC of 10 (+1 per 2 HD of tumble opponent) if you don't like my precedent breaking reflex save. Still allows a Rogue or Monk to tumble reliably, but a cross class maxed out tumbler at least would have a chance.

Rav

 

[Steverooo]

Anyone can add one to their tumble check at each level...

Nope, most characters have Tumbling as a Cross-Class Skill, and can add only 1/2 a Rank per level. Only Bards, Rogues and Monks (do Monks get Tumbling) would be able to tumble past Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers a bit better than 1/2 the time, IF they had the skill maxed out. Your Mage friend would have less than a 50% chance. Is that your intention?

 

[Ravellion]

Nope, most characters have Tumbling as a Cross-Class Skill, and can add only 1/2 a Rank per level. Only Bards, Rogues and Monks (do Monks get Tumbling) would be able to tumble past Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers a bit better than 1/2 the time, IF they had the skill maxed out. Your Mage friend would have less than a 50% chance. Is that your intention?

Actually, less than that.

Let's take a 12th level Example:
Fighter, Cross Class Tumbling, Dex +4, -1 Armour check penalty (chain shirt): +10 tumble: DC against 12th level fighter 22.

Fighter, Cross Class Tumbling, Dex +3, -3 Armour check penalty (breast Plate): +7 tumble: DC against 12th level fighter 22. (30% chance)

Fighter, Cross Class Tumbling, Dex +3, -6 Armour check penalty (Mithril Ful Plate): +4 tumble: DC against 12th level fighter 22. (% chance: You should have used cross class skils for spot.

Let's take a 20th level Example:
Fighter, Cross Class Tumbling, Dex +6, 0 Armour check penalty (mithril chain shirt): +17 tumble: DC against 20th level fighter 30.

(This character is actually highly unlikely: He would have rogue levels with those stats)

(Anyone stil using a breastplate at level 20 needs to be shot

Fighter, Cross Class Tumbling, Dex +3, -6 Armour check penalty (Mithril Ful Plate): +8 tumble: DC against 12th level fighter 30. (0% chance... in mithril armour, no shield.)

Rav