Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

So the 80 hit point fighter who has 5 hit points left, and has not yet been dropped, is still only suffering small cuts and bruises?

It means that he has taken a very large number of small wounds. That's not something you shrug off with an act of will, at least not for longer than a few minutes. Blood loss alone will weaken you.

Does that mean the only time healing surges in 4E are actually an issue to you is when they change someone's status from negative to positive hit points?

No. They would be an issue each time they result in wounds getting healed. Given how few damage you seem to take in 4E, as opposed to the massive blows 3E can deal, that may not be an issue. But if I was playing 4E, I'd have to use the "you force him to dodge, straining himself" description far more often, especially if using the "the last blow that drops someone decides if it was real or stun damage" rules.
 

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It means that he has taken a very large number of small wounds. That's not something you shrug off with an act of will, at least not for longer than a few minutes. Blood loss alone will weaken you.

But in 3E D&D blood loss doesn't weaken you, unless there's a Wounding weapon or stirges involved, or you're in the negatives already.

In 3E D&D the fighter at 5 hit points will stay at 5 hit points indefinitely, as long as nothing hits him again.

No. They would be an issue each time they result in wounds getting healed.

There's no reason a healing surge needs to result in a wound getting healed. A healing surge increases your hit points. Whether or not the wound is healed is a separate issue.

-Hyp.
 

But in 3E D&D blood loss doesn't weaken you, unless there's a Wounding weapon or stirges involved, or you're in the negatives already.

In 3E D&D the fighter at 5 hit points will stay at 5 hit points indefinitely, as long as nothing hits him again.

A fighter in 3E at 5 hitpoints is weakened. He can't just spend a few healing surges, and is good to go for another dragged out fight - he is at 5 hitpoints, weak, and easy to kill.

There's no reason a healing surge needs to result in a wound getting healed. A healing surge increases your hit points. Whether or not the wound is healed is a separate issue.

The results of a healing surge, and what hit points represent, is the point of the last few pages. And that 4E hitpoints are not corresponding to anything concrete, especailly not concrete wounds, is what bugs a number of people.
 


That's obviously cool for you. In the games I have played over the decades though, we have always treated resurrections of any description as special - it's just how our group likes to play such things and how I think we'll continue to play things in 4E, even though as you say, it can be viewed as mechanically just a healing spell that can take even the most severely damaged creature/blob back to running around.

Well, it is a ritual, and you do need to invest some money in it. Maybe it can also only be done in special places with the permission of the right people. As long as you're clear about that up front you can make it as special as you want it to be.

Fine but as I have said, the mechanics of the game don't inform the players very well how to do this - and while your guidelines work for you, they leave several ramifications that do not mesh with my group's play style. The style of game our group plays, the players more look to the mechanics and DM to define what is going on in the game. Your style of play is different (no better, no worse, just different).

Yeah, I seem to have lucked into a group of players who are okay with me being a lazy bastard and shifting most of the narrative impetus onto them.

So if the DMG had included a wound resolution system, with, say, 1 Head 2-4 Arms 5-8 Chest 9-0 Legs (unless the GM gives you an obvious target, like ye legbreaker) and then random tables for each rough body location, with sample descriptions of normal concussive wounds, obvious but shallow wounds (bloodied), KO shots (0 hp), and apparently lethal wounds (-bloodied) that would be okay for your players? Let's say 20 wound samples and maybe 6 or 8 for the other types? Probably 6, it'd be easier to balance them in two columns that way.

Now, I'm not in the mood to write down 160 entries for a problem I don't have, but if it's severe enough to slow down play for your group, either through people trying to come up with ways to describe damage or carping on about how it's so unreasonable, maybe come up with 10/3/3/3 for one location and then see based on that if it's a reasonable time investment?

Herremann the Wise said:
That is one solution to the problem. Or you could have a mechanic that produces a result that can be quickly interpreted because the mechanic is clean and elegant and meshes well with the flavour it is representing.

It'd be nice if anything like that could ever actually exist.

Elegant proofs are elegant not because they can completely explain what they prove, even to the layman, but because to someone who already has the necessary mathematical knowledge to work a longer proof they can evoke it with a minimum of information. They are concentrated essential knowledge, just add water, but first you have to put the "water" in your head.

Herremann the Wise said:
However, at zero hp or less, injuries are quite severe (involving a tracking system like you have with the Legbreaker! - which I'll comment on below).

Well, one of the problems with any kind of damage modeling is that it makes the "take damage" step of combat resolution take longer.

Yeah, even the bugbear legbreaker with his 2 rolls per attack instead of 1, though you could probably speed up the condition resolution with, like, an index card with the states on it and a paper clip under "slowed".

Herremann the Wise said:
A different but I think equally valid solution to the processing gap/overload you describe. The one thing human's are very good at doing is judging a situation quickly. Give them easily interpreted variables and I think most people are OK.

Quickly and, generally, wrongly, if it involves any kind of conditional, negation, or multiple subsets. I've seen the research. You would not believe how bad even master's-level students are at fitting those kinds of relationships into the human mindset.

(And don't even get me started on assessing states with, and making predictions from, derivatives. That was the toughest thing to wrap my head around when I was learning to drive, and I was kicking calculus and taking names at the time!)
 

It does, but not via the action resolution mechanics (eg in classic D&D and AD&D PCs never make morale roles). It happens via freeform roleplaying. This is quite different from a game like (for example) HeroWars or The Dying Earth in which the mechanics treat "morale damage" and "physical damage" in the same way.

I don't think so. The mechanics of a game directly inform the "win conditions" of the game, as has been demonstrated repeatedly and consistently through games theory. In this case, character hit points rather drastically and directly impact the odds of given actions resulting in a "win", and this directly informs player action (assuming he understands the game at all).


RC
 



Have you had time to get back to it yet? :)

I'm interested in seeing what you had to say.

No, I haven't, and I am not sure that it is worth the effort. Well, for some it might be, but when the general response is "the disconnect doesn't exist at all", I doubt whether any further attempts at breaking down the disconnect will help.

If someone cannot determine that the mechanics of having 5 hp instead of 80 hp is going to directly affect how a character is played, and how effective that character is in a fight, what hope do any words of mine have?

I'm thinking of bowing out and coming back around 5e (possibly 6e) to say "I told you so".


RC


EDIT: BTW, I am glad that they included rituals in 4e. I posted several times during WotC's 3e era claiming that some spells should be rituals. Every once in a while, it seems, they agree with me on something! (Whether they know it or not, and whether or not they care.)
 
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IMHO, all game mechanics should follow the "arrow of time" as relates to in-world events.


RC
They can. The arrow of time can hit you when you're ready to be hit - e.g at the conclusion of the adventure, or in any larger rest period within a "running" one. That's how it works in most stories. Jack Bauer is not indestructible, but his break-down comes at the end of the season, not during it. (Well, at least that's what happens in one season.)

Maybe there is also a source of dissonance - I care more about the kind of stories I evoke then what might happen "realistically". Maybe that's the difference between "sim" and "narr"?
I don't want the rules to dictate the flow of the story - I might want tools to manipulate the flow of it, but it's the DM and his groups decision when the party spends a week "off" to recover from broken limbs and gashing chest wounds.
 

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