Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[Hussar]

I'm frustrated with the very question of why not just build it into the game. I mean, 9 time out of 10 the characters when, so why not just build that into the game? You don't build fighters spontaneously healing their own wounds into the game because fighters do not spontaneously heal wounds.

They do in 4e.

BTW, what buzz words did I use in my post. Look, I know you're pretty hostile right now, but, honestly, taking it down a few notches might help. I posted a pretty reasonable question I thought. If I got it wrong, show me how.

Also BTW, I never referenced 4e and don't play 4e, so, characterizing me as some 4e fanbois isn't really helping.

Building autowins into the game would be boring, so, my whole Game First approach would nix that automatically. There's no fun in playing in God Mode, so, that's why we don't do it.

But, forcing groups to have a cleric isn't all that much fun. ((Or relying on cure light wounds wands as a bandage fix)) So, change the mechanics so you don't need clerics. Thus, all classes can heal themselves and, since it's the way most tables play anyway, a full nights rest cures all hit point damage. There, game first approach.

One option I considered in 3e was allowing all clerics to cast cure minor wound at will. Or just allowing all cantrips to be cast at will. Would have the same effect in the end. I decided that it was a trifle too powerful to go that far. But, again at the end of the day, how is that any different than a cure light wounds wand? After each fight, everyone is going to get healed to full anyway.

 

[Hussar]

I know everyone feels and acts differently, but I know that in my group, that just will never work. If a game becomes to deadly and uncontrolled, we just stop seeing a character as important. We would distance ourselves from them. They become nothing more than a game piece with no "emotional" attachment.

"Oh, look, my character just died. Hmm. Didn't look like the Monk/Sorcerer build worked. I think we need a real Wizard more. so I'll make an Evoker next - who cares for Illusions or Enchantments anyway. So - standard 25 point buy and wealth by level? Entry level my last characters level -1 as usual halfway to next level as usual?"

That's precisely what happened in my last 3e game. 1 PC death every 3 sessions. Far and away too lethal. Nobody gave a toss about their characters towards the end. Just numbers on a paper.

Fun but, not for very long.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

To figure out if something should be "build in", in the example of healing it is simple:
- If the party survives, what will stop them from using their Cure Light Wound Wands and Cleric spells to heal themselves up to full hit points? The answer is usually very little.
- If the party is in combat, what stops them from using their Cure Light Wound Wands and Cleric spells to heal all damage taken during the found? The answer is usually a lot.

Automatic full regeneration during combat is hard (or impossible) to pull off. After combat - not really.

So, keep the part that is apparently challenging (the part where you don't regenerate), but remove the part that isn't. That's the "gamist" approach - keep the part that are challenging, remove the parts that are automatic/boring (and often enough, simple system mastery)

A similar thing happened to "pre-combat" buffing. In 3E, it was standard operating procedures to stack up buff spells of various sorts, ensuring things like +4 enhancement bonus to all relevant statistics, Greater Magic Weapons/Magic Vestments running on armors, Barkskins distributed among the front-liners, immunity to Fear and Poison from Heroes Feat, Overland Flight for the caster. Once you got to the point where you have figured out that this is a smart thing to do, there is no longer any challenge. It's just performing a "Buff Macro".

So, that's gone in 4E, too. Pre-Combat buffs are basically non-existent. If you want to buff, do it in the middle of combat.

Going back to our flavor first vs game first - I don't know if people wanted the flavor of pre-buffing in their games. If it is something that made them feel like in a "believable" world, or a world to immerse themselves in. But from a gamist point of view, the rules leading there were irrelevant. They didn't provide any challenges, and just made the game more complicated, because you suddenly had to stack different modifiers and effects, and if you'd ever be hit by a Dispel Magic, you end up re-doing your character stats. From a gamist point, a "debuff" that causes you to take a -4 penalty to attacks and defenses could achieve the same. Of course, if you no longer describe this effect as a "dispel" (because there is nothing to be dispelled), you need to come up with a different flavor. Maybe it is the Warlocks "Curse of Albon" spell, or the Wizards "Bigby's Disrupting Hand" spell. Or the Fighters "Painful Strike" exploit.

 

[Fenes]

Buffing was greatly reduced in our campaign even before the advent of 3.5.

 

[Stoat]

Buffing was greatly reduced in our campaign even before the advent of 3.5.

Could I ask why? We didn't have much pre-combat buffing in my 3.X game, but it was because we had a weird mix of PC's: Sorcerer, Fighter, Fighter/Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Buffing was greatly reduced in our campaign even before the advent of 3.5.

I think you have very well established that "your campaign" is nothing like mine - and I tend to think like most others, too. You're playing D&D in ways I can only applaud or even envy, but it is totally so not standard that I will never use it as an example for how D&D 3E worked or was supposed to worked.

 

[Fenes]

Could I ask why? We didn't have much pre-combat buffing in my 3.X game, but it was because we had a weird mix of PC's: Sorcerer, Fighter, Fighter/Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.

I don't like buff spells as a whole, especially the straight stat boosters. I feel they cheapen character stats and abilities, and add nothing to the game. As I said to the players "you boost your stats, I boost the NPC stats, and we're back at the status quo ante. So, why not drop the buffing right away?"

 

[Mallus]

You've mentioned this a couple of times and each time, I have felt it an unsatisfying solution.

All pemerton is saying is "if fast healing bothers you, play a different way'.

Why have this period of time when the game allows you to heal up (unbelievably as it were) overnight?

Presumably because the default (unbelievable) healing rules bother you?

Do the players or DM just decide that "hey, my healing surges don't work because I have a bad injury".

Yes. The players and DM agree that it takes more time to heal the PC's. This could come in the form of a house rule, a whole new homebrewed severe injury system, or a simple agreement between the players. In the end they amount to the same thing.

I mean, how do you even determine if you have a bad injury?

Going below 0 HP seems an obvious choice.

A wonderful mechanic, but one that's flavour grates with my sense of verisimilitude.

So agree to play differently. It seems easy to fix.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't like buff spells as a whole, especially the straight stat boosters. I feel they cheapen character stats and abilities, and add nothing to the game. As I said to the players "you boost your stats, I boost the NPC stats, and we're back at the status quo ante. So, why not drop the buffing right away?"

An observation the designers of 4E seemed to share. But when designers find something useless, they rip it out of the entire game system. Players just ignore that part of the rules.

(Of course, beware: Higher level monsters might be based on the assumptions that you use some of your spell potential for buffing. But on the other hand, if you run only one encounter per day/session, it might not matter, since you can put your high level spells to good use. )

 

[cwhs01]

All pemerton is saying is "if fast healing bothers you, play a different way'.

A possible houserule:
* Going below your bloodied value - you can't heal above bloodied with healing surges until after an extended rest or magical healing has been aplied.
*going below 0 HP - You can't heal to more than the bloodied value (or 1/4 total HP?) until after a total of 5 (pick a number, any number or roll a d20) extended rests, or applications of magical healing.

Add wands of cure light wounds to the campaign, and you're practically playing 3.5e again...

But me personally i don't care and find the 4e system to be good enough.