Flea vs Dragon 1-0

laiyna

First Post
Hong:

Boots, magic items or what ever don't work when you shapeshift. You need a special "clasp" MoF for that to get them working.

Flies are fairly slow on movement so the player still needs 2 rounds when vernable to AoO from the dragon.

Dragon got "easy" acces to permenancy spell, I don't know a dragon who does not have the next spells always up:
see invisibility, detect magic, true vission, etc. The player would be spotted and first get an AoO, the round after a full attack round.

The dragon got loads of chemicals in his system, atleast a few attacks of that when crawling in the ear.

I would give the dragon the same dammage as I would give the player (the suggested 1d8 per size catogory) if I would allow it at all. If I would allow it the player would be outside the dragons ear laying before the dragon on the ground. Again getting an AoO and a few full attacks/spells.

In short, it prob is posible but the player would be R.I.P. before the dragon is killed. Would the player be killed when she is in the dragon, the corpse would be desolved becouse of the chemicals of the dragon.

Lai
 

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Gaiden

Explorer
An official ruling on such innovations of such spells would be highly appreciated (shameless plug for help from the sage).

However, I think if I were DMing I would not rule the effect as an insta-kill since there is no real foundation for that in the game. Comparing other types of attacks that would be similarly lethal such as any effect as described as impaling, eviscerating, etc. to the size morph inside a creature suggests that a method of determining damage should be determined. After all, whose to say that you necessarily increase in size in the manner that would enlarge from a central point or that your position does not change while morphing.

If I can be a bit clearer on the last point - let's say you are the size of a flea and currently in a specific 5'x5' square at the direct center. One might argue that as you expand to accomadate the volume of a medium size creature you expand in every direction equally maintaining the central point position. However, there is nothing in the rules to mandate this and it is just as likely that one face of your dimensions remains in its position and the expansion takes place from that plane. Moreover, it is just as likely that the position could shift within that 5'x5' square so that as you expand you never occupy the same space as something else. Moreover, let's say that you are on a 5'x5'x4.999999' block currently in one cube but then as you are ontop of that cube in the shape of a flea and expand to a medium size creature you are now considered to occupy the cube above the one that housed your original position.

Keeping the above perspectives in mind, it seems to me that first, a creature expanding in size will shift in position to fit the available space (if possible). Given the flea in the dragon's ear canal scenario where there does not appear to be enough space, it then seems that the question would be a matter of hardness (in physics/chemistry terms, not game terms). As you expand in size are you "harder" that the dragon's ear (assuming that it has an ear canal). Some might say yes, some might say no.

Let's look at two examples to focus the argument. Let's say there is a construct that consists of pure adamentium and that that adamentium is entirely solid (with no internal empty space). Lets say that this construct has the ability to shapechange and shape changes into something of dimunitive size from its original medium size (just go along with this for the point). Let's place that dimunitive construct inside a sealed sphere constructed of clay - something arguably exceedingly "soft" in terms of my earlier comments on hardness. The construct then attempts to revert back to its original form.

What happens?

One could say the spell simply fails. However, this hardly seems reasonable. Rather I would assume the construct would be back in its original form and the clay sphere would be...well it would be no more. :)

Lets reverse the materials with the same conditions. So now the construct is clay and the sphere is adamentite. Let's make the sphere sufficiently thick enough to ensure the reasonableness that it can withstand tremendous pressure. So the construct attempts to revert back to its original form. I'd say one of two things can happen - excluding the simple failure to return to original form. The adamentite sphere could be no more or the clay construct would now try to fit its actual volume in a volume that is much to small. This would in a sense be equivalent to increasing the pressure of the clay construct. Rules for this do exist. HAHAHAHAHA - EUREKA. Deep sea pressure rules that explain a character takes something like 10d6 or 20d6 or something of pressure damage every round they are unprotected in the deepsea. So one could say that the clay construct takes this much damage (and vice a versa for the first of these examples with the obvious difference that in the first example the pressure is exerted outward resulting in an explosion and in this example, the pressure is exerted inward resulting in a partial implosion). Also, this damage could be easily adjusted according to the size difference. If one really wanted to calculate this they could deal with all of those pesky physics equations relating force to pressure and then calculate the amount for force in my example to the amount by the deep sea given by the depth and proportianlize the damage.

This of course assumes that one substance is obviously much harder than the other. In the case of the deep sea, water is amorphous, so I would probably also include minor damage - maybe 1/10th of the original - on the construct/sphere respectively since it too would be receiving tremendous force. Of course all of these additions to the deep sea pressure rule are house rules.

So going back to the flea/dragon scenario - was the character encased in a suit of platemail. I certainly hope so - because of dragonscales are any indication to the hardness of a dragon's bones/muscles/interior, most likely the character is going to be taking most of the damage. You could also just rule 50/50 and divide the damage equally.

Alternatively, you could apply the stonewalk/teleport rules that prevent two things from occupying the same space and simply catapult the flea into the astral plane.

Now for the soapbox - I really hate when DMs just rule 0 on something. If the rules don't prevent it let it happen, and come up with some FAIR, let me say that again FAIR, ways of dealing with the issue rather than just screwing the players.
 

Anders

First Post
I really appreciate all your ideas and view points.

The last one was very interesting, indeed, but a little bit too mathematical to completely absorb to its fullest degree when making a quick DM-judgement at the hectic gaming table with yelling idea-inventing players.

I like the idea of just shunting the changer out of the enclosure, but will probably stick to the Not Larger than the Enclosure house rule, else the player will certainly think of something even more odd and unbalancing.

She already did the gate for solar to get wishes stunt even before I realized the potential wrack that would cause to my campaign when the 3rd Ed. came out.

Anyway, thanks you all.:)
 


JRRNeiklot

First Post
I tell my players that if they try any crap like that and it sounds logical, fine. It works. One dead dragon. But, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. The next session, I'll have the same damn thing happen to the mage. You see, one of the dragons henchmen saw this and reported it to an ally of the dragon, who thought it was a REALLY clever idea and....
 

IceBear

Explorer
Again, I could see the character being expelled from the enclosed space, but I could also see the force from the expansion killing both parties involved as well - two objects can't occupy the same space - so the dragon's skull gets radically expanded the spellcaster gets radically contracted and all that's left of the dragon's head and the spellcaster is a pile of goo which is useless for raise dead.

IceBear
 

Numion

First Post
Ok, this might be a creative use of the spell.

I just wonder how happy said player would be if the dragon used the same trick on her? Turn into a invisible silent flea, enter her body and expand.

As a DM I've noticed that players like to defend all kinds of borderline rule-breaking tactics, until I use those tactics at them.

During years of gaming it's come my motto that "Anything PCs can do, so can NPCs." Sometimes just better ;-)
 

JLXC

First Post
Numion said:
Ok, this might be a creative use of the spell.

I just wonder how happy said player would be if the dragon used the same trick on her? Turn into a invisible silent flea, enter her body and expand.

As a DM I've noticed that players like to defend all kinds of borderline rule-breaking tactics, until I use those tactics at them.

During years of gaming it's come my motto that "Anything PCs can do, so can NPCs." Sometimes just better ;-)


Could you be ANY MORE RIGHT?

Don't think so!

:D
 

Gromm

First Post
IceBear said:
Again, I could see the character being expelled from the enclosed space, but I could also see the force from the expansion killing both parties involved as well - two objects can't occupy the same space - so the dragon's skull gets radically expanded the spellcaster gets radically contracted and all that's left of the dragon's head and the spellcaster is a pile of goo which is useless for raise dead.

IceBear

Sounds good, but if he's casting Shapechange, the party cleric is casting True Ressurection, so he's still back and fighting.

I say use the best DM rule of all: Sure it works that way.

(After telling the player repeatedly that this doesn't work, and giving up)
DM: "Fine the dragon's head explodes."
Player: "Sweet! We grab his treasure."
DM: "Sure."

Next session
DM:"You set up camp for the night, your head explodes and you die."
Player:"Don't I get a save? Whats going on?"
DM:"Nope no save. The other party members look on stunned and confused."
PartyCleric:"I cast Trueseeing."
DM:"Your head explodes, you die."
PartyCleric:"What the F@$k?"
PartyFighter:"I look for flies or fleas."
DM:"Nope don't see anything. The Rogue's head explodes."

In the end the party learns that an improved inivisble, hasted, stoneskinned, silenced, mind blanked, wizard flea killed the whole party. The DM then offers the rule that next campaign stupid instant kill ideas wont be used. The party agrees, but not before everyone punches the wizard player in the gut (IRL).

Players always lose on instant kill combos. The Players have tons of downtime and only one life. The DM has millions of lives and only one of them has to use an insta kill against the party for the DM to win. So in short: Don't play stupid or try to use stupid interpretations of the rules. The DM will use them against you and you wont be playing anymore.
 
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ForceUser

Explorer
There's a real adversarial tone in this thread. Come on guys :D

Reality check. Shapechange is a NINTH LEVEL SPELL. Off the top of my head, let me think of a few more "instakill" 9th-level spells:

Wish
Miracle
Imprisonment (not dead, but trapped forever. No save. Close enough.)
Power word, kill (less than 100 hit points only, but you've been fighting that dragon. He's wounded now.)
Temporal stasis (again not dead, but close enough. No save. Suspended forever.)

I'd allow it. Like Gromm said, anything the players do you can do right back to them. If they want to open that can of worms, let them. I'd reward the player for her ingenuity, if anything. Then I'd grin a wicked, evil grin and say "That's a great idea!"
 

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