Fleshshiver (PGtF) + Chain spell (T&B) = urrrgh ?

[Plane Sailing]

Besides which, what's the difference between everyone ganging up on him when he's not stunned? If you're going to ignore all threats to take him out anyway, the trivial AC difference (in most cases) and his lack of an action hardly changes things that much.

The big, big issues is that the stunned guy isn't doing you any damage or interfering with you; Most combats that I've run at levels 8-12 don't last more than 4-5r and a dramatic reduction in combat capacity for 1-2 rounds can have an unexpectedly large effect on the combat

 

[James McMurray]

Thankfully, my players don't metagame like that. In real life you'd never turn your back on an active threat to beat down a held/stunned/mezzed oppponent, because his friends would hack you down.

In D&D, attacking someone who is held does not require turning your back on anyone else. If it worked that way in the real world, people might be more inclined to take out the held threat and remove him entirely.

Besides which, what's the difference between everyone ganging up on him when he's not stunned? If you're going to ignore all threats to take him out anyway, the trivial AC difference (in most cases) and his lack of an action hardly changes things that much.

The difference is that if he is being stunned every round by the party spellcaster, he doesn't get to meteor swarm you (or whatever other nasty surprise he's like to use).

The big, big issues is that the stunned guy isn't doing you any damage or interfering with you; Most combats that I've run at levels 8-12 don't last more than 4-5r and a dramatic reduction in combat capacity for 1-2 rounds can have an unexpectedly large effect on the combat

What he said.

 

[Spatula]

Bleah, I've had someone want to Chain Destruction or Implosion, heck or even Slay Living, and you think Fleshshiver is bad ?

Since both Destruction and Implosion allow saves (and can't be Chained at pre-Epic levels), yeah I do. Slay Living can't be Chained since it's a touch spell.

 

[Kalanyr]

Actually with Improved Metamagic Destruction IS chainable pre-epic, how likely is it that when targeting potentially 20 people pre epic that none of them fail or roll a 1 ?

 

[the Jester]

Don't forget, if you stun someone you've got a round to steal the weapon, staff, wand, or whatever that he just dropped.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Actually with Improved Metamagic Destruction IS chainable pre-epic, how likely is it that when targeting potentially 20 people pre epic that none of them fail or roll a 1 ?

Well, first of all, Destruction is [Death] magic, so quite many things are immune to it and Deathward-spell is easy to have at those levels. It is much harder to get a spell that prevents non-mindaffecting stun.

Secondly, there are a lot of insta-death spells in D&D. Destruction is one of them and if the BBEG bites the dust with it, then its good luck for the players as the BBEG failed his save.
However, the BBEG has probably much better saves than his minions, so more than 1 minion of those 20 probably drops, but the BBEG has only a small chance of being any way hampered.

With Fleshshiver, he is out of the picture as long as the player caster has 5th or higher spells. (or 8th or higher with Chain spell).

Though, Fleshshiver is not the worst... look at Fanfare, from Song&Silence...

 

[James McMurray]

Yeah, Fanfare is broken beyond all belief.

You can also get a similar effect via Shapechange. The Hollyphant in BoED has a trumpet blast that is the exact same as a 3.0 Horn of Blasting.

 

[Darklone]

Yet another reason not to use BoED.

In real life swordfights I would have not a big problem to dispatch a stunned or paralyzed person... you simply step around him and bring him between yourself and the other opponent... then he's sheeshkebab and his buddy has big problems to attack you.

Where's the metagaming?

 

[James McMurray]

Yet another reason not to use BoED.

That's odd, I would have said "yet another reason to disallow (Su) abilties with Shapechange".

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's a lot less likely than one of the similar number of people targettable by wail of the Banshee not rolling a 7 or less (Wail of the Banshee's DC is at least 6 points higher than the chained Destruction--2 for being 9th level instead of 7th and 4 for not being chained). Granted, Wail of the Banshee doesn't do 10d6 on a successful save but you're a lot less likely to successfully save. Furthermore, the 10d6 on a successful save is really an issue with Destruction rather than with Chaiin Spell or anything else. The 7th level clerical death spell has no business being that much better than Finger of Death.

It's also a bit silly to be bringing Improved Metamagic (which, AFAIK, is only available pre-epic through one or two prestige classes which are quite questionably balanced themselves) into any discussion about the balance of feats or spells. You might as well make vorpal weapons the defining balance point for Improved Critical or the arcane archer's magic arrow ability the defining balance point for Greater Magic Weapon.

Actually with Improved Metamagic Destruction IS chainable pre-epic, how likely is it that when targeting potentially 20 people pre epic that none of them fail or roll a 1 ?