Fleshshiver (PGtF) + Chain spell (T&B) = urrrgh ?

[James McMurray]

It isn't the stun one round that breaks the spell, its the no save part. Stunning someone for one round equals death almost every single time.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Stunning someone for one round equals death almost every single time.

How so? They can still defend themselves, so no coup de grace. Only a rogue can go to town with sneak attack dmg and a fighter power attacks, this is different how anyway if the rogue is already flanking while the fighter normally power attacks? This isn't a hold spell afterall.

Colorspray: DC 14-16 will save (depends on caster) for a fighter-type, at high levels still has a 50/50 or better chance of working. 5HD or greater = stun for one round. This is a first level spell mind you, then there's the monk's stunning attack...

 

[The Souljourner]

Are we talking about the same stunned condition?

Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Like LiquidSabre said, no coup de grace. Yeah, the rogue gets sneak attacks, but he can get that from flanking, too. Yeah, no dex is kinda ouchy, but grand total, this won't knock off more than 4 or 5 AC most of the time, unless it hits someone who is extremely dex-based. So, +4 to be hit for one round spells instant death? I honestly don't understand that.

Yeah, stopping one person for one round with a spell is decent. But keep in mind, it takes you out of that round as well. You used your action to stop the other person's action, and give people +4-ish to hit him (maybe as little as +3 if the guy is wearing full plate).

Yes, it's good. Yes, it's better that cone of cold (what isn't?). But broken? Over powered? Not really. Fort save spells are generally kinda sucky to begin with, because most monsters and fightery types have good fort saves.

Does anyone have the specific text for the spell? It would be useful in better evaluating it's power.

-The Souljourner

 

[two]

fanfare

Wasn't there a bard-only spell in "Song and Silence" called, Fanfare, or something like that? I think it was Bard6 or Bard5. ( I don't have the book).

It was a cone area of effect, and as I recall stunned for 2d4 rounds everyone that failed a save, a fort save I think, (maybe will), but if they MADE the save they were "only" stunned 1d4 rounds.

Pretty nice. Definately over the top for a Bard spell which, well, are supposed to be wimpy.

Can somebody check up on my swiss-cheese memory?

 

[Dthamilaye]

Fleshshiver
Necromancy
Sor/Wiz 5
Range: Close
SavingThrow: Fort partial, see text.
SR: Yes

This spell affects the target's skeleton, snapping and twisting bones. The target is automatically stunned for 1 round (no saving throw). In the following round, it must make a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level and be nauseated by pain for 1d4+2 rounds.



Thats the mechanical side of the text. I bolded the most important text.
It is one target spell. 1 round of stun (no save). Next round, save or take d6 bludgeoning (non-energy) damage without limit and be nauseated for some time.

The no limit in damage might be somehow understandable, as the spell affects only one target. However, the damage is BLUDGEONING damage, ie, it goes through EVERY resistance, so it is quite powerful.

However, the stun with no save is the killer (IMHO). It just gets better and better the higher level the players are.

As I said in my initial post:

I just found it bit funny when one sorcerer kept a pack of Brachyurus (ELHB) stunned for a long time while everyone else had easy time to chop them to bits.

Brachyuruses are CR 23 with a lot of hp and are quite good at dealing damage when they succeed at tripping someone.
In the fight, the sorcerer in the players group stunned 2 of them for 5 or 6 rounds, with no save. They lost 14 AC due to dexterity penalty, plus gave the players +2 to hit due flanking (because the beasts could not maneouver to stay out of flanked spots). Ie, their AC dropped effectively from 40 to 24.

I belive there are even better examples if you take some monsters out of the ELHB. Duh, assuming the caster can penetrate SR, he could keep Devastation vermins and Hecatoncheires stunned as long as he had 5th level or higher slots. Thats pretty good for 5th level spell. Of course, he would deal some nice damage if the Devastations or Hecaton would throw 1 as saving throw as no energy resistances would help (also CL as cap on the damage).

Now, with chain spell, the sorcerer in the players group could have hold 25 of those stunned for about 14+ rounds, with NO SAVE.
Of course, the chain spell has range of 30' radius from the initial target, but lots of targets can get into a 60' diameter area.


So, I think the 'no save' is the problem with this spell. IMHO, it should stay as it is, but the fort save would be done before the stun. If the fort save succeeds, no stun would happen.

Thank you
Dthamilaye

 

[Dthamilaye]

Wasn't there a bard-only spell in "Song and Silence" called, Fanfare, or something like that? I think it was Bard6 or Bard5. ( I don't have the book).

It was a cone area of effect, and as I recall stunned for 2d4 rounds everyone that failed a save, a fort save I think, (maybe will), but if they MADE the save they were "only" stunned 1d4 rounds.

Pretty nice. Definately over the top for a Bard spell which, well, are supposed to be wimpy.

Can somebody check up on my swiss-cheese memory?

Uh, yeah. Everyone in the area is stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafened for twice as long, even if the save succeeded. If the save failed, they get an additional 4d6 damage . The area is cone. Definitely very overpowered (imho) also. Of course, the bards do not usually concentrate so much on penetrating SR as real casters.

 

[James McMurray]

How so? They can still defend themselves, so no coup de grace. Only a rogue can go to town with sneak attack dmg and a fighter power attacks, this is different how anyway if the rogue is already flanking while the fighter normally power attacks? This isn't a hold spell afterall.

Nobody said anything about Coup de Grace. When you are stunned you drop what you're holding, lose your dex mod (usually 1-5 AC, sometimes more), and you give all those around you +2 to hit. You will be easily flankable because you can't more to avoid it, and the fighter will be power attacking away the bonuses he gets to hit, meaning each hit will do an extra +6 or more damage.

Colorspray

: DC 14-16 will save (depends on caster) for a fighter-type, at high levels still has a 50/50 or better chance of working. 5HD or greater = stun for one round. This is a first level spell mind you, then there's the monk's stunning attack...

Color Spray is both an illusion and mind affecting, meaning a vast number of creatures are immune to it. It also only works if you can see the spray, meaning if you know to expect it you can just close your eyes and be immune.

Like LiquidSabre said, no coup de grace. Yeah, the rogue gets sneak attacks, but he can get that from flanking, too. Yeah, no dex is kinda ouchy, but grand total, this won't knock off more than 4 or 5 AC most of the time, unless it hits someone who is extremely dex-based. So, +4 to be hit for one round spells instant death? I honestly don't understand that.

It isn't +4 to hit, its +2 to hit, you drop what you're holding (sometimes a shield, usually a weapon). You also lose your dex mod. The rogue can get sneak attacks from flanking, but if he is flanking an opponent that isn't stunned, he has to worry about the counterattack eating up his low hit points because of his low AC. With stun, that's not a problem.

Yeah, stopping one person for one round with a spell is decent. But keep in mind, it takes you out of that round as well. You used your action to stop the other person's action, and give people +4-ish to hit him (maybe as little as +3 if the guy is wearing full plate).

When you are squared off against one or two people, trading one of your actions for all of theirs is a great trade. When you get to the point where you can chain it, the trade is even better, as you're trading one action for up to your caster level in actions. The damage part is actually the weakest aspect of this spell. I personally would take the spell even if it dealt no damage at all, stunning the BBEG is just that powerful.

Yes, it's good. Yes, it's better that cone of cold (what isn't?). But broken? Over powered? Not really. Fort save spells are generally kinda sucky to begin with, because most monsters and fightery types have good fort saves.

That's true, fort saves are good for monsters. But as I said, the damage is secondary. The stun part is what makes this spell so powerful.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Yes, it's better that cone of cold (what isn't?).

I'll take a flying caster with a widened cone of cold pointed straight down any day over this spell!

 

[UltimaGabe]

Of course, he would deal some nice damage if the Devastations or Hecaton would throw 1 as saving throw as no energy resistances would help (also CL as cap on the damage).

Of course, considering he'd have to be a 50th+ level caster in order to overcome a Hecatoncheire's SR. But, by that point, that's not really surprising, is it?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'll take a flying caster with a widened cone of cold pointed straight down any day over this spell!

Then you're nuts.

Even if you have an ideal situation for the widened cone of cold, you're going to do what, 15d6 damage? Assuming a failed save and average damage rolls, that works out to 52.5 points of damage. By the time you can cast 8th level spells, typical foes will have at least 100+ hit points (caster types) to 250+ hit points. The cone of cold does nothing to prevent them attacking back. So, you're looking at all of your foes probably surviving for at least two rounds with caster types starting to drop on round 3 or 4 and everyone getting great-cleaved by round 4 (round 5 if your foes toss a mass heal or something on the group).

On the other hand, let's see what happens with a chained Fleshshiver. Assume that all the foes make the save (if they don't, they're out of action for the entire combat--nauseated means they'll only get move actions, so the only way they'll hurt you is quickened spells and AoOs). So they're stunned for one round. In a best case scenario, they're a group of foes with class levels. When they're stunned, the fighters, clerics, and rogues, drop their weapons (and your allies are probably able to position themselves to get AoOs when they pick them up). While the front line is stunned, your fighters can run to the back and gack the wizard. After that, they start falling like dominoes. But let's take a less optimal scenario. Now, you're fighting a deadly group of foes who are all physically powerful and some of whom have deadly spell like abilities. While your foes are stunned, you get some battlefield control spells off (block two of them out with a wall of force, put another two in an acid fog and block that off with a blade barrier, then move your fighters up to the last couple.

But let's speculate that you are willing to cast the spell more than once. In that instance, you win. Your party can probably kill one or two of your foes per round when you know you don't have to worry about defense, so within 4 rounds, all of your foes are dead and probably had no chance to inflict damage on you.

The only time a widened cone of cold would be better is if you're facing a vast horde of creatures with 50-100 hit points. And, in that situation, you probably aren't worried anyway (since odds are good that they don't seriously threaten you).