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FLGS and DnD?

I think that's an excellent way of introducing the game to first time gamers. Furthermore, from what I can tell, it's something that FLGS use a lot to draw people in, and helping FLGS helps gaming in general.

My introduction to gaming was not all that dissimilar, actually. And, really, that's pretty much how D&D came about to begin with. Playing a wargame led to the desire to explore the motivations of the game pieces which eventually led to a full-on roleplaying game that kept a lot of its wargaming background.

I played chit games in 1977 and moved on to D&D. I never played a one-off. The thing that fascinated me was the RP factor. And I certainly never received out-of-character player advantage cards. The whole magic of it was the immersion. The focus on tactics ("looking down from above") and receiving out of game bonuses is anti-immersion, IMHO.
 

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Sorry, it is a stupid statement. It is a fine opinion.

4E is Dungeons & Dragons. It says so on the label. (Of course, I also believe that Pathfinder is D&D and Labyrinth Lord is D&D and Castles & Crusades is D&D. What it says on the label isn't the only possible criterion, but it certainly counts, otherwise, the only D&D that ever would have existed would be the original LBBs -- certainly there are folks in the OSR community who feel this way.)

It's also Dungeons & Dragons because it honors the sacred cows of D&D -- ENWorld has had multiple threads enumerating the sacred cows, and you'll have a hard time finding many D&Disms that aren't in 4E. Beyond something nebulous like "feel," point to something concrete that 4E is missing that other editions of D&D have in common. Because I have a hard time coming up with it. (And don't say a focus on tactical combat until you've looked at the LBBs, which are only a half-step beyond the Chainmail rules, at best. And if any game is Dungeons & Dragons, it's the set of rules that orignally bore that name.)

He doesn't have to like 4E -- I sold all my 4E books, after all -- but to say it's not D&D as though it were a fact is stupid. To say "I don't like it because of X, Y and Z" is not only better, it's actually helpful, since it lets would-be customers know whether they care about similar criteria. As it is, the sole criterion is "this dude doesn't like it," which doesn't necessarily mean much to anyone.

He didn't say it is not D&D. He said it is not recognizable as D&D. To say, someone who has been playing since the 70s, as he and I have.

The conversation was precipitated around me ordering two Labyrinth Lord, and LL AEC. I have both of them downloaded on my computer in PDF, and they are very recognizable as D&D. I have looked at the Pathfinder rules online, and they are recognizable as D&D. Nearly every conversation I have had with someone about 4E is that it is a different game.

Some like it, some don't. One of the store owner's critique of it was that he played a session in his store, and it took two hours to resolve a simple combat. He runs several games a week in his store, and decided he did not want to run 4E.

Another guy I talked to loves 4E. It is the only version he has played.

The store carries a full line of 4E products, so I doubt he is discouraging people from purchasing it. I was asking about editions, including Pathfinder, and OSR stuff. His opinion was that 3.x still felt like D&D, Pathfinder feels like D&D, but 4E does not. Meaning, feeling like you are playing at least a variation of the same game you've been playing for 30 years or so.

Interestingly, he told me that Lamentation of the Flame Princess has the tightest set of OSR rules he has seen, and they prefer it because of that. They don't play it as "weird fantasy"... just use the rules for their D&D game.

To say that "if any game is D&D its the original books that bore the name" ignores perception of people who have played the game for decades. I owned a couple of those little brown books, but never used them in play. Having already played Basic D&D, and AD&D, those books didn't look much like D&D to me. It may be that a few editions from now, nothing pre 4E will "feel" like D&D to most people, and that for new players who started playing with 4E, nothing else feels like D&D to them now.

As someone who was looking to spend some money, I valued his input. Had I gone in there to buy some 4E books, I doubt he would have scoffed at my purchase.
 

He didn't say it is not D&D. He said it is not recognizable as D&D. To say, someone who has been playing since the 70s, as he and I have.
A lot of us have. ;)

To say that "if any game is D&D its the original books that bore the name" ignores perception of people who have played the game for decades.
Uh, what? The LBBs are not D&D?

Other than combat running on too long -- a criticism that's also leveled at high-level 3E, incidentally, but 3E remains D&D for all but the most hardcore OSR types -- I'd still love to hear what about 4E makes it "not recognizable as D&D." So far, there's been some nebulous stuff about "the feel."

If anything, I think the arguments during the 4E transition about the fluff being so radically different have more merit -- at least, they were actually enumerated and detailed. But you could run Runequest in the Forgotten Realms using the Great Wheel cosmology and it still wouldn't be D&D. The Dungeon! board game from the late 1970s/early 1980s explicitly used the then-current D&D fluff but was clearly not Dungeons & Dragons, either.

So what makes something D&D? The "feel" can be explained, and it's a lot more productive to pin it down than to say "nuh uh, not THAT."

Because, when you're describing D&D to someone who's never played it, but plays other RPGs, you'd say it's a class-based, level-based, fantasy-race based game that uses hit points, armor class, relatively abstract combat, and some characters possess rigidly defined supernatural powers. That's been true of every edition of D&D and isn't completely true of all its competitors (it's not true of Runequest or Advanced Fighting Fantasy, for instance). What additional definable qualities are required to make something D&D, especially ones that 4E fails to possess? I'd genuinely like to hear it, because, honestly, it doesn't sound like there's an argument beyond "I know D&D when I see it," which is a pretty weak one.
 

A lot of us have. ;)


Uh, what? The LBBs are not D&D?

Obviously they are. Or were. The issue is one of feeling and expectation.
You could look at a car from the 1960's that has the same name as one today, and say "Wow, that one from the 60's doesn't even look like it would be from the same manufacturer, let alone be the same model." Your reference is the version you were first introduced to. It is an entirely subjective "feeling".

What additional definable qualities are required to make something D&D, especially ones that 4E fails to possess? I'd genuinely like to hear it, because, honestly, it doesn't sound like there's an argument beyond "I know D&D when I see it," which is a pretty weak one.

Perhaps the issue is seeing it as an argument in the first place. I haven't played 4E, nor read the rules. But from everything I've heard, it doesn't SOUND like D&D. The language is quite alien.
 
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If 4e would have been called 3e and dropped in 1999, everyone (save perhaps the Gnarliest G'nards) would have loved it.

"Holy crap! I have *options* to choose from as my character advances? Wow!"
 

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