Flurry of Blows and Special Attacks

[Artoomis]

I'd like opinions on whether you can use the Flurry of Blows attacks for initiating a grapple, attacking while in a grapple, getting a "hold" in a grapple (opposed grapple attacks for pinning, etc), tripping, disarming, sundering, etc.

If you differentiate among those listed above, please state why.

If you differentiate between Flurry of Blows and other iterative attacks, please state why.

First, I'll state that I do not differentiate between Flurry of Blows and any other iterative attack routine.

Second, I think you can do any of the following as one of your attacks:

Start a Grapple
Trip
Disarm
Sunder
Damage your opponent during a Grapple
Escape a Grapple
Pin your opponent
Use the Disarm action while your opponent is pinned (to grab away a well-secured object)
Escape from a Pin

(Keep in mind that Sunder is listed as a "Standard Action" in the table, but Sage Advice seems to indicate that the table is in error, and I'm going with that, at least for this discussion.)

 

[Camarath]

I think it all depends on how you read this sentence "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)." If you read this to mean you may only Attack (i.e. attempt to strike your opponent) with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons then other action which one could normally take in place of an Attack would be prohibited. If one reads this to mean the only weapons one can use to attack with are unarmed strikes and special monk weapons then I think one could allow for action that are taken in place of an attacks to be allowed as long as the are preformed with unarmed strikes (which some people would assert means any unarmed attack) and special monk weapons

 

[ZansForCans]

I'd like opinions on whether you can use the Flurry of Blows attacks for initiating a grapple, attacking while in a grapple, getting a "hold" in a grapple (opposed grapple attacks for pinning, etc), tripping, disarming, sundering, etc.

If you differentiate among those listed above, please state why.

Here is my post from a related thread just today:

• Disarm is accomplished with unarmed strikes or weapons, thus you can use it in a flurry.
• Trip does not. It uses an unarmed (touch) attack to deliver a trip--not an unarmed strike.
• Starting a grapple also is not accomplished with either an unarmed strike or a weapon. You can't do this in a flurry. You also can't do nearly any of the other grappling actions with flurry (same reason). However, you can "Attack Your Opponent" with an unarmed strike or monk weapon and use flurry.

If you differentiate between Flurry of Blows and other iterative attacks, please state why.

The rules tell me to: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons."

First, I'll state that I do not differentiate between Flurry of Blows and any other iterative attack routine.

Second, I think you can do any of the following as one of your attacks:

Start a Grapple
Trip
Disarm
Sunder

See above...

Damage your opponent during a Grapple
Escape a Grapple
Pin your opponent
Use the Disarm action while your opponent is pinned (to grab away a well-secured object)
Escape from a Pin

Except for the Disarm (which is covered above) I'd disagree with all these, but you can probably guess why from above: they don't use an unarmed strike or an monk weapon. In addition, they all require grapple checks, not attack rolls. Flurry allows you to make attacks.

(Keep in mind that Sunder is listed as a "Standard Action" in the table, but Sage Advice seeme to indicate that the table is in error, and I'm going with that, at least for this discussion.)

OK. I don't like that ruling, and prefer the core RAW, personally. I think it makes Sunder too unbalanced at high iterative attack sequences if you allow it as an attack. For me it's not worth allowing it to be an equivalent to Disarm (and then being able to use it as an AoO, which I don't find terribly unbalancing). But I do understand some of the rationale to make it an attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This was recently debated in this thread.

I pretty much agree with everything ZansforCans said, including "Sunder is a standard action!"

The only thing I'm somewhat on the fence about is trip attacks with a kama. I think I'd probably allow trip attacks with a kama in a Flurry of Blows.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I think it all depends on how you read ...If you read this to mean you may only Attack (i.e. attempt to strike your opponent) with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons then other action which one could normally take in place of an Attack would be prohibited. If one reads this to mean the only weapons one can use to attack with are unarmed strikes and special monk weapons then I think one could allow for action that are taken in place of an attacks to be allowed as long as the are preformed with unarmed strikes (which some people would assert means any unarmed attack) and special monk weapons

I see where you are coming from here, and, though I consider it an extreme hype-technical argument, I can see how one would think that a Flurry attack is different from other attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can see how one would think that a Flurry attack is different from other attacks.

If I'm a monk with a BAB of +11, I can kick someone twice and hit them with my longsword.

If I Flurry, though, that longsword hit is illegal.

A Flurry attack is different from other attacks. It is restricted to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Using a longsword as part of a flurry - even though it's a completely normal melee attack, and a Flurry grants an extra attack - is forbidden, impossible, and cannot be done.

Grappling is neither an unarmed strike (since WF: Grapple and WF: Unarmed Strike are two completely separate feats), nor a special monk weapon (all of which are listed in the Flurry text)... just like a longsword.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Here is my post from a related thread just today:

• Disarm is accomplished with unarmed strikes or weapons, thus you can use it in a flurry.
• Trip does not. It uses an unarmed (touch) attack to deliver a trip--not an unarmed strike.

• My goodness that a rather technical view of the difference between a "strike" and an "attack." I don't think that difference is really supported by the rules, but at least I understand where you are coming from.

  [*]Starting a grapple also is not accomplished with either an unarmed strike or a weapon. You can't do this in a flurry. You also can't do nearly any of the other grappling actions with flurry (same reason). However, you can "Attack Your Opponent" with an unarmed strike or monk weapon and use flurry.

"Starting a grapple require a successful melee attack roll." Hard to imagine how a successful attack roll with a Flurry is not a "successful attack roll."

The rules tell me to: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons."

Okay, but other than limited the weapons used, how is it different from simply getting more attacks? I don't think the monk description really supports a difference.

First, there is no different between "strike" and "attack." Strike is an undefined term in D&D, so that we must assume that it is meant in a non-technical sense. As evidence, I present the fact that the words "strike" and "attacks" are used nearly alternately - a common technique in writing to avoid too much word repetition. I think that's all that's going on here with the word "strike."

As further evidence of that, the word "strike" is used in hundreds of places and appears in virtually every SRD document, and most certainly is not a specialized term - it is used pretty much interchangeably with "attack".

For example:

Chain, Spiked: A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

The use of the word "strike" here is quite similar to how it is used in the monk's Flurry of Blows description, but I assume you'd allow someone with a Spiked Chain to attempt to Disarm or Sunder with it, right?

If you read the rules on each of those items I listed, they each use up an "attack," even if they don't use an attack roll per se. (Sunder aside, let's not get into that discussion here please, that would be distracting form the main point).

So I ask again, how is an attack during a Flurry of Blows different form any other attack, aside form the restriction on which weapon may be used?

 

[Artoomis]

If I'm a monk with a BAB of +11, I can kick someone twice and hit them with my longsword.

If I Flurry, though, that longsword hit is illegal.

A Flurry attack is different from other attacks. It is restricted to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Using a longsword as part of a flurry - even though it's a completely normal melee attack, and a Flurry grants an extra attack - is forbidden, impossible, and cannot be done.

Grappling is neither an unarmed strike (since WF: Grapple and WF: Unarmed Strike are two completely separate feats), nor a special monk weapon (all of which are listed in the Flurry text)... just like a longsword.

-Hyp.

It's true that a "grapple" is not monk weapon. It's not a weapon at all - despite the fact that you may take WF: Grapple.

Grapple is a "Special Attack."

I really cannot see any reason why the "melee touch attack" required to "grab and hold" your target cannot be on of a monk's Flurry attacks, especially since "If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times.." Certainly a monk with Flurry is getting multiple attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Starting a grapple require a successful melee attack roll." Hard to imagine how a successful attack roll with a Flurry is not a "successful attack roll."

It's not. But the melee attack roll to start a grapple is not made with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. It's a grapple. Weapon Focus: Grapple will add +1 to your roll. Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike will not.

Since you're not using an Unarmed Strike or a special monk weapon, it's an illegal attack in a Flurry.

Okay, but other than limited the weapons used, how is it different from simply getting more attacks? I don't think the monk description really supports a difference.

That's right. It's the same... apart from limiting the weapons used. That limitation is why you can't Grapple, since you're not using an Unarmed Strike or a special monk weapon.

Strike is an undefined term in D&D...

But "Unarmed Strike" is not.

The unarmed melee touch attack to start a Trip is, arguably, not using an Unarmed Strike. (As opposed to Grapple, which, due to the existence of separate WF/WS feats for Grapple and Unarmed Strike, are certainly distinct.)

The melee touch attack to start a Trip with a kama is using a kama... which is why I'm inclined to allow Tripping with a kama in a Flurry.

So I ask again, how is an attack during a Flurry of Blows different form any other attack, aside form the restriction on which weapon may be used?

It's not. You can attack with an Unarmed Strike or a special monk weapon just as you normally would. You can't attack with a longsword or grapple, since those are neither an Unarmed Strike nor a special monk weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I really cannot see any reason why the "melee touch attack" required to "grab and hold" your target cannot be on of a monk's Flurry attacks, especially since "If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times.." Certainly a monk with Flurry is getting multiple attacks.

If I get multiple attacks, I can hit someone with my longsword multiple times.

Certainly a monk with Flurry is getting multiple attacks... but not with a longsword.

If Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike doesn't apply to my attack roll, it's not an attack with an Unarmed Strike.

It doesn't apply to the touch attack to start a grapple; that's what WF: Grapple is for. Therefore that touch attack is not an attack with an Unarmed Strike (nor a special monk weapon), and is thus illegal... just like the longsword.

-Hyp.