D&D 4E Flying in 4e

[helium3]

It sounds to me like Flight is unfun. Perhaps they should get rid of it in 4E.

In all seriousness, for whatever reason our group hardly ever flies. I suspect it's because it's a real pain in the butt to deal with, what with all the trig involved.

Also, for people that don't like flight because it allows players to circumvent DM places obstacles, I assume you have a similar dislike for dimension door and teleport?

 

[Thundershield]

A tree does the same thing. Either you can deal with foes at range or you can't. If your foe can't a tree will save your butt about as often as the fly spell does. The only issue I have with flight isn't flight but the insane ranges on some spells. As long as you are well within basic range weapon categories when on offense I don't see it as an issue. Heck if you have some need that they always be in weapon range give the fly spell a flight ceiling or something. Claim its based on telekinesis and it pushes off the ground and after a certain distance from the ground there isn't enough force to push higher.

Ok, I just don't see muddy ground as a big issue to for my adventures I guess, or a mountain. Terrain is more of a back story element to me not a large challenge to overcome. Besides you can easily open up airborne terrain hazards. Wind is much stronger in the air, there isn't any wind breaks to slow it down and you have nothing to brace your self against. Also any weather based problems other than fog usually are still in the air unless someone is flying really high. Heck even in 3e by the time you could fly in anyway that would disrupt these elements you were high enough level that I just don't see these things as appropriate challenges anymore. And the ones that were appropriate challenges generally flight did nothing to solve.

Eh spell casters solve problems with magic, skill dudes with skills etc. My only complaint has been classes like the fighter that don't have any way to solve dilemmas, and skills seem more limited to me than they should. Escape artist should be able to pull off a lot of the features of the freedom of movement spell IMO, for example.(not an epic person maybe it does at epic levels, I think it should be available sooner)

The DM can control if there's a tree there or not, and the tree can be chopped down. No biggy. House ruling flight is of course an option, but rarely a pretty one. I admit I hadn't thought much about the "aerial terrain hazards" but there are arguably fewer of those than earthbound ones. And lastly, casters (like any other class) should be able to solve problems, yes, but not circumvent them entirely. As I pointed out, becoming immune to a variety of obstacles by relatively simple means is like completing computer games with god mode on. You diminish what challenge there could be and reduce the entertainment value. That would qualify as "unfun"..

Anyway, to get back to the original topic, I do hope flight appears in 4E and in a much simpler and easy-to-use fashion, but I also hope we won't see perma-flight or entire parties that just hover above their enemies and throw rocks down at them. Don't make me have every grand fight take place in cramped spaces, during windstorms, or be against a creature with a mysterious anti-flight aura just to get the players to come down and face it.

 

[Nebulous]

I never really thought about it, but flying really is pretty easy to get at low level. It should feel more special, and reserving it for paragon level might do the trick. Maybe some limited flying to whet ones appetite at lower level will be used.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Personally as a player access to things like Flight also helped make the sweet spot what it is. I think Monte summed it up pretty well back at 3e adventure design when saying that things like flight just need to be accepted at these levels and different kinds of challenges need to be found. Sure terrain based obstacles are fine at low levels, but part of the fun was getting the mid level spells like flight that opened up new opportunities. If I wanted to play in a game that was all about terrain and random wilderness encounters I would only play low level.

 

[Imp]

My hope is that they come up with an abstract system that simulates three-dimensional combat for flying and (possibly) swimming combats.

Playing it out on a mat is fine for one-on-one duels, but much beyond that and it becomes a terrible grind (keep track of height, vector, maneuverability...) and feels exactly how aerial combat shouldn't feel like to play through.

Compare flying checks, determine advantage, make combat rolls, something like that.

 

[Mistwell]

Now that it's clear they're stretching out levels it doesn't mean they'll be more restricted in a relative sense, but in absolute terms yes it will be restricted compared to 3.5. Three levels difference, though I'd say 15th level was overvalued even in 3.5e. I've never been of the camp that flying made things easier, it doesn't, they merely exchange one set of hazards for another. Now I'll admit flying may seem to out-there superheroic for some people at the existing 3e levels but that's primarily a style concern.

Flying at will by use of a constant-item carpet that can hold multiple characters is just not the same as "Flying in D&D". To take that one item, which preliminarily has it's level raised by 15% while the levels in the game raise by 30%, and conclude that flying in general is a high level affair, is faulty logic.

We don't know if flying will be higher level, or even relatively lower level (with "relative" meaning relative to experience point progression and character levels). And we probably know that the item being used in this thread to make that determination really isn't representative of the topic (flying) itself.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Flying at will by use of a constant-item carpet that can hold multiple characters is just not the same as "Flying in D&D". To take that one item, which preliminarily has it's level raised by 15% while the levels in the game raise by 30%, and conclude that flying in general is a high level affair, is faulty logic.

We don't know if flying will be higher level, or even relatively lower level (with "relative" meaning relative to experience point progression and character levels). And we probably know that the item being used in this thread to make that determination really isn't representative of the topic (flying) itself.

It really isn't the Flying Carpet description that makes the indication, it is the Rope of Climbing that implies flight will be pushed into the Paragon range. The Rope is a 10th level item (and the description says that it is put at that level because it comes before flight and short-range teleportation are available) and Boots of Levitation (which presumably allow only limited flight based on the name) are 13th level.

Because a Flying Carpet is traditionally more useful for group transportation than combat, and I imagine that to be the same in 4E (somehow), I would imagine that the Flying Carpet is probably on the bottom end of permanent magical flying items. Short term flight items for individals and combat may be lower or on the same level, but that is still going to be about 15th level. In other words, the second half of levels.

It is a big change from having the Fly spell available at 5th level.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Personally as a player access to things like Flight also helped make the sweet spot what it is. I think Monte summed it up pretty well back at 3e adventure design when saying that things like flight just need to be accepted at these levels and different kinds of challenges need to be found. Sure terrain based obstacles are fine at low levels, but part of the fun was getting the mid level spells like flight that opened up new opportunities. If I wanted to play in a game that was all about terrain and random wilderness encounters I would only play low level.

EDIT: Heh, brain fart, basically repeated myself from the previous page...