For everyone who piles on Avalanche for their covers, please look

[drnuncheon]

Re: There's two sides to this story

THAT SAID...

You should really not judge a book by its cover. Despite that fact that I have just slammed Jade & Steel for its cover, the contents are rather good. [/B]

My wife and I can't get over one of their other products - I forget which one, Greenland maybe? - where they basically tell you that "women should get these stat penalties and no bonuses, suck it up".

Great way to attract women to the hobby, guys. That last time I saw that BS was in Fanasy Wargaming from the 70's. Player characters in D&D are supposed to be exceptional - that's why they get more dice to roll for stats and max hp. They're the ones that break the rules of normal society.

Between that and the covers, it's pretty much prevented us from buying anything else from Avalanche.

J

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: I'm with Arcady here.

Nothing wrong with it persay - I just wish they publish a pin up book instead of sticking it on an 'historical' reference book in regards to Avalanche's goods.

And they should play fair: hulking naked brute alongside the sizzling naked brunette, ya know? But they rarely do. We women are the ones who have to parade around in the bikinis. (Granted, Eldrich Might has a shirtless guy, but there should still be more skin. I WANNA GUY IN A THONG, DAMMIT!)

Besides - you all are missing a key point: You don't HAVE to be naked to be cool. Those covers do portray an image, a bad one, IMO, and I don't care who's name is on the cover. It screems cheese. But, you know, if cheese is what they want, go for it. As long as they realize that sort of publicity is a two edged sword.

I find it interesting that the PDF version has a cover with a male fully covered up and looking dark and mysterious, while the printed version is the one with the T&A. If I were inclined to buy the product, I'd by the PDF over the print version in a heart beat.

Personally, I like the cover for "If Thoughts Could Kill."

Ashtal

you, my good lady, are the only consistent voice of those who don't agree with avalanche's M-O. thank you for sticking to your guns and not giving some hogwash about Demon god fitting the "context" etc. T&A is T&A. either you like it or ya don't.

and here's to seeing more barbarians in speedos, too..right next to those lovely chainmail bikini fighters.

 

[Ashtal]

Re: Re: I'm with Arcady here.

you, my good lady, are the only consistent voice of those who don't agree with avalanche's M-O. thank you for sticking to your guns and not giving some hogwash about Demon god fitting the "context" etc. T&A is T&A. either you like it or ya don't.

and here's to seeing more barbarians in speedos, too..right next to those lovely chainmail bikini fighters.

I don't think I'm the only one.

But thanks anyways.


Ashtal - loving the thought of Xena's Ares slapping on a thong and parading around on some RPG cover...somewhere...

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: There's two sides to this story

My wife and I can't get over one of their other products - I forget which one, Greenland maybe? - where they basically tell you that "women should get these stat penalties and no bonuses, suck it up".

I pay more attention to authors than to publishers. Who wrote that? I bet it wasn't Jim Lai.

Beleive me, there is likely no person here who thinks that the "frustrated teenager" targeted marketing goes too far more than me. (In fact, I find Mongoose's apparent art policy of "one bare breasted woman per product" rather annoying...) But I really think that you should judge a products content on the merit of the content, not on the merit of the cover or (especially) another product's content.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

King Stannis,


The the voices who are saying that Monte's T&A has context never disputed the fact that it was still T&A.

And why is context hogwash? If I buy an RPG book that's called "Swashbucklers" I would find it out of context and inappropriate to have a Conan-esque barbarian (And yes, Ashtal, he's wearing a speedo) holding a giant club. And if context is truly hogwash and it's all about the art then I assume you would have no issue with a d20 cover about ancient Greece to have Jennifer Lopez on the cover?

 

[hong]

Re: King, Do You Ever Feel Like A Voice Calling In The Wilderness?

Greetings!

You don't get it King my friend because some people just like to whine. I say yeah, show lots of gorgeous women, half-naked. Hour-glass figures and everything. It's beautiful. Who in their right mind doesn't like to look at beautiful women?

Yeah, but I don't want to wipe down my keyboard ALL the time.

 

[Ashtal]

I, too, would prefer context being the driving force in cover design and I am still adamant that a cover can be cool, attractive and compelling without having a near-naked, obviously sexual (like the Avalanche covers) as the main focus. It's T&A and to me it will always say, "We don't believe in the product enough for you to check us out without offering you eye candy."

However, if we are to have sexual covers on some products, I just want fair and equitable 'exposure.' What's good for the goose is certainly good for the gander, but game publishers are too timid or fearful to try.


Ashtal

 

[chatdemon]

The funny part is, since a cover's real job is just to attract attention to the product and keep it in the forefront of the audience's mind, Avalanche's covers are doing their job perfectly. If you have a gripe with Avalanche's use of flesh to move products, contact them directly, or don't buy their stuff. These two accomplish the goal of getting them to change. Drawing attention to them in a thread like this just makes people curious. They go check out the cover yall are rallying against, and some of them probably go "hey, that looks cool" and buy it. Then it appears to Avalanche that their production strategy is working, and we get more flesh.

Honestly it doesn't, and never has, bothered me. One look at the covers of such "women's" magazines as Cosmopolitan and Elle will show you the hypocrasy in attacking scantily clad women on products that are supposedly geared toward men.

 

[King_Stannis]

King Stannis,


The the voices who are saying that Monte's T&A has context never disputed the fact that it was still T&A.

And why is context hogwash? If I buy an RPG book that's called "Swashbucklers" I would find it out of context and inappropriate to have a Conan-esque barbarian (And yes, Ashtal, he's wearing a speedo) holding a giant club. And if context is truly hogwash and it's all about the art then I assume you would have no issue with a d20 cover about ancient Greece to have Jennifer Lopez on the cover?

BG

The reason behind some people having a distaste for T&A is, if I’m not mistaken, the fact that they feel it degrades women. The cover for Demon God is every bit as gratuitous as anything Avalanche has done, and perhaps, surreptitiously, even more so. With Avalanche they have dropped all pretense and said “look, let’s get people’s attention by showing an illustration of a beautiful women on the cover. Maybe then, if they’ve got our product in their hands, they’ll give it a look”.

The problem with covers like Demon Fane is that it wants to achieve the same objective, but does so under the pretense that it somehow fits the story. As has been discussed numerous occasions, the AC benefit for a chainmail or leather bikini is nil. I’d never go into combat with one. ( ). How many of you have equipped female characters or even NPC’s with them? So the fact that there are two hot chicks in next to nothing fighting….well, fighting whatever it was they were fighting (I didn’t notice what it was – see how that stuff works ), is a bit disingenuous to me. It simply does not happen “in game”.

It’s like saying someone can’t beat or torture an elephant in the wild, because it’s cruel. But if it’s in a circus? Well, in that context, it’s okay….go ahead and smack away! If you feel something is wrong, it should be wrong for the reason it’s wrong. If you object to Avalanche using sex and T&A to sell, then ask yourself why you hate it. If it’s because it’s degrading to women, then you should make no distinction nor be fooled by someone who plasters a bit more artwork next to it. The T&A is still the first thing that gets your attention.

for the record i'm a fan of T&A. I also thought that the viking sourcebook woman from avalanche was tame compared to the two on Demon God's cover. Now, Ragnarok (sp?) is a different story..

 

[King_Stannis]

The funny part is, since a cover's real job is just to attract attention to the product and keep it in the forefront of the audience's mind, Avalanche's covers are doing their job perfectly. If you have a gripe with Avalanche's use of flesh to move products, contact them directly, or don't buy their stuff. These two accomplish the goal of getting them to change. Drawing attention to them in a thread like this just makes people curious. They go check out the cover yall are rallying against, and some of them probably go "hey, that looks cool" and buy it. Then it appears to Avalanche that their production strategy is working, and we get more flesh.

Honestly it doesn't, and never has, bothered me. One look at the covers of such "women's" magazines as Cosmopolitan and Elle will show you the hypocrasy in attacking scantily clad women on products that are supposedly geared toward men.

A-M-E-N.