For former Wizard fans stuck playing 4e...(Forked)

[Kunimatyu]

Going from it steps on skills toes making skills useless to its totally useless itself is not a great trade.

I disagree -- I got a lot of use out of Disguise Self, and it was a heck of a lot more impressive then what the rogue could pull off.

We were infiltrating a stronghold of Orcus, and I knocked a guard off a cliff, knocked out the other, then impersonated the cliff guard, invented a story about climbing back up, and used the other guard and the Chewbacca technique to bring the party into the stronghold as "prisoners". It was fantastic, and way cooler, since I used MAGIC to do it.

You guys say that the "magic" is gone from this edition, but seriously, it's right there, I promise.

 

[Ahglock]

I disagree -- I got a lot of use out of Disguise Self, and it was a heck of a lot more impressive then what the rogue could pull off.

We were infiltrating a stronghold of Orcus, and I knocked a guard off a cliff, knocked out the other, then impersonated the cliff guard, invented a story about climbing back up, and used the other guard and the Chewbacca technique to bring the party into the stronghold as "prisoners". It was fantastic, and way cooler, since I used MAGIC to do it.

You guys say that the "magic" is gone from this edition, but seriously, it's right there, I promise.

And he did not notice that your voice was different than Joe the guards. Or that you did not clank from the armor you did not wear, or all the other problems with disguise self. And even if this were so, how often does a disguise self situation come up? Once every couple adventures?

So you spend a incredibly valuable utility slot on learning a power you will rarely use, and when you do need to use it can only use once per day. How good are you at it, well its a +5 bonus so just as good as someone with the bluff skill, you can do it much less often, and for a much narrower range of issues. But hey you can do it as a standard action, and putting together a disguise probably takes a couple minutes. That is totally not worth a daily.

The bluff skill lets you do everything disguise self does and then a whole lot more, but it might require a smidgen more set up. A utility slot is about as valuable a skill slot in resource expenditure terms, maybe even more valuable. So disguise self probably would be balanced as an at will ability. It is total weak sauce as a daily.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...just go play 3.5. It's not gone.

Which is the solution I came to shortly after getting my 4Ed Core 3.

My point was only that certain design decisions- like excising the ability for Wizards to drop the bomb on opponents, as per this thread's discussion- don't appeal to certain players.

And no amount of "but instead of that, you can do this" will sway their hearts and minds.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I agree with that. 3.5 and 4E are different and two communities are already forming around the two games. Some people will do both to one extent or another, but as time goes by, the camps will get further apart. Nothing wrong with that, as I have never been aprt of the groups that play non-WOTC games either. I sometimes wander over and look at their threads, but it is like seeing an alien civilization. I don't know what is going on over there, but it looks interesting. They look like they are having fun. Even without me, which honestly is a surprise lol

 

[weem]

Those who want a swiss army knife won't feel that way if the DM follows the advice in the DMG. And every once in a while, the Wizard can pull out a grenade from that swiss army knife.

Someone mind dropping a page/section reference? I skimmed a little while ago but at a glance didnt see anything - I thought it would be easier to ask what you are referring to

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

My point was only that certain design decisions- like excising the ability for Wizards to drop the bomb on opponents, as per this thread's discussion- don't appeal to certain players.

And no amount of "but instead of that, you can do this" will sway their hearts and minds.

And that brings it full circle to the first post, and that's the situation my group is sitting in. Our one guy (the "wizard guy" from 3e) isn't buying any substitutes. 4e simply does not, nor will it ever (most likely), offer him the same things that he can get from a 3e wizard.

Now, this guy isn't totally out of luck. He feels - overall - 4e is a much better game. And he's not blind to the fact that everyone else in our group has moved forward, and that we desperately would love to have him along for the ride.

I think, in the end, his answer will be to play something other than a wizard-type. That's both refreshing (in that he hasn't done it in years), and sad (in that he's loved playing wizards since the mid-80s and had no reason to change - until now).

C'est la vie.

WP

 

[thecasualoblivion]

And that brings it full circle to the first post, and that's the situation my group is sitting in. Our one guy (the "wizard guy" from 3e) isn't buying any substitutes. 4e simply does not, nor will it ever (most likely), offer him the same things that he can get from a 3e wizard.

Now, this guy isn't totally out of luck. He feels - overall - 4e is a much better game. And he's not blind to the fact that everyone else in our group has moved forward, and that we desperately would love to have him along for the ride.

I think, in the end, his answer will be to play something other than a wizard-type. That's both refreshing (in that he hasn't done it in years), and sad (in that he's loved playing wizards since the mid-80s and had no reason to change - until now).

C'est la vie.

WP

Indeed. The big loss is the divorcing of the Wizard concept and what the 3E Wizard used to do. A lot of what the 3E Wizard did is gone for good. For toolbox utility, in 4E its in skills and Rituals as opposed to any particular class. For serious battlefield control, I don't think anybody does it better than the Fighter right now.

 

[Ahglock]

Indeed. The big loss is the divorcing of the Wizard concept and what the 3E Wizard used to do. A lot of what the 3E Wizard did is gone for good. For toolbox utility, in 4E its in skills and Rituals as opposed to any particular class. For serious battlefield control, I don't think anybody does it better than the Fighter right now.

The sad thing for us is dropping the big bomb the cleric seems to do better. Per opponent it is a little less damage, but being able to drop it where ever they want has meant a lot more targets have been hit. Not sure if it changes at higher levels, but right now battlefield control not so much, big boom area of effects sure, but not as good as the cleric. It so far is just more consistent with the at wills. Our wizard rides flaming sphere into glory and that is about it. When he gets stinking cloud another awesome daily will be available, but for now the wizard is the light that shines the least bright. Luckily he is rare show, though it looks like we will be gaining a new player who is looking at the wizard class.

So far for us the wizard has the smallest toolbox,(skill set that basically should be one skill what is that monster, and rituals that are too expensive to cast regularly), mid range battlefield control, 2nd best area of effect type. I hope it changes as we level.

 

[Ravilah]

The answer, of course, is to let the wizard have any of the powers in the book that he wants, and to make them all at-wills, too!

Haha, just kidding.

I am one of those who have loved playing wizards for years and have had a hard time learning to love the 4e-zard. I have, in fact, learned to enjoy my 4e wizard, but I still hate (hate hate hate) the fact that I cannot prepare more than one fireball spell--even if I know I'm headed into a White Dragon's livingroom. I miss scrolls, and I agree with whoever it was that said rituals cost too much and take too long. And I have to CHOOSE between dispel magic and invisibility? That sucks!

I am currently designing some rituals that imitate utility spells, but that last longer and effect more people. If any ritual-casting class can cast them, I don't see why this would be too unbalancing. IMO, a minor lack of "balance" in the mechanics can be overcome by good DMing and good roleplay.

 

[CardinalXimenes]

And he did not notice that your voice was different than Joe the guards. Or that you did not clank from the armor you did not wear, or all the other problems with disguise self.

Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation. Problem solved.