For former Wizard fans stuck playing 4e...(Forked)

[Kunimatyu]

Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation. Problem solved.

Quite. My Wizard also has trained Bluff (via Warlock multi), so it wasn't that hard to fool a credulous mook.

Also, all of the Wizard utilities at that level are Dailies, so I don't think one loses a whole lot with the selection of Disguise Self over Dim Door (the most common choice, I hear). Yes, you can't use a short-range teleport, but a quick-change, including to a unique individual, can be huge.

Let me just clarify something else here -- I was not a huge fan of the 3.5 wizard, and when I selected the 4th ed as a PC, what I wanted was not "play an all-powerful 3.5 class" but "play Gandalf"(or a Dumbledore, etc).

With the 4th ed Wizard(and especially its cantrips!), that's what it feels like.

 

[Ahglock]

Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation. Problem solved.

Not really. That solves the gingling armor and that is it. He still sound slike himself not the guy he is impersonating. You know the other guard., in a two guard pair.

 

[Ahglock]

Quite. My Wizard also has trained Bluff (via Warlock multi), so it wasn't that hard to fool a credulous mook.

Also, all of the Wizard utilities at that level are Dailies, so I don't think one loses a whole lot with the selection of Disguise Self over Dim Door (the most common choice, I hear). Yes, you can't use a short-range teleport, but a quick-change, including to a unique individual, can be huge.

Let me just clarify something else here -- I was not a huge fan of the 3.5 wizard, and when I selected the 4th ed as a PC, what I wanted was not "play an all-powerful 3.5 class" but "play Gandalf"(or a Dumbledore, etc).

With the 4th ed Wizard(and especially its cantrips!), that's what it feels like.

So in other words you spent a daily to get an additional +5 to your roll. And not +5 to bluff overall, but +5 to bluff to help with a disguise. Yeah, that was worth a utility slot.

And my point isn't that you made a bad choice amongst those utilities, but all the utilities are bad. They should not be dailies.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Not really. That solves the gingling armor and that is it. He still sound slike himself not the guy he is impersonating. You know the other guard., in a two guard pair.

It solves the voice and the armor - Ghost Sound can impersonate voices, especially when backed up with Bluff. Also, since Disguise Self is a utility, I know it and a combat-useful spell(dimdoor), and can choose which I want for a given day. Works well.

 

[LostSoul]

If a DM follows the advice in the DMG the vast majority of examples of why cantrips are cool that I've seen on this board would not be allowed.

And that advice is...?

(I'm thinking about things like "Saying Yes" and "Actions the Rules Don't Cover".)

 

[Ahglock]

And that advice is...?

(I'm thinking about things like "Saying Yes" and "Actions the Rules Don't Cover".)

I'm thinking the same thing then. Only I read yes but, and plenty of rules covering thing. Like hey ghost sound. What kind of sounds does it create, oh non-vocal ones. and yet, the say yes crowd somehow sees that as meaning yes to duplicating someones voice in speech. Or saying yes to mage hand tieing up foes in combat with a rope. It is like saying I should say yes to the wizard when he casts the jump spell, when he tells me with his super powerful jump legs he kicks the dragon into the sun.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm thinking the same thing then. Only I read yes but, and plenty of rules covering thing. Like hey ghost sound. What kind of sounds does it create, oh non-vocal ones. and yet, the say yes crowd somehow sees that as meaning yes to duplicating someones voice in speech.

Ghost Sound:
Effect: You cause a sound as quiet as a whisper or as loud as a yelling or fighting creature to emanate from the target. You can produce novocal sounds such as the ringing of a sword blow, jingling armour, or scraping stone. If you whisper, you can whisper quietly enough that only creatures adjacent to the target can hear your words.

Or saying yes to mage hand tieing up foes in combat with a rope. It is like saying I should say yes to the wizard when he casts the jump spell, when he tells me with his super powerful jump legs he kicks the dragon into the sun.

The mage hand can manipulate objects. Why can't it tie up a foe in combat with a rope? It's simple enough to adjudicate - Int vs. Fort or Ref (DM's choice, depending on how the monster resists); Hit: the target is Restrained (save ends).

Since it's an attack you gotta use a Standard action.

Or the Jump thing: How about an Int vs. Fort attack, high normal damage (2d6+Int for a 3rd level Wizard) and he's Pushed Int mod squares.

Why shouldn't you say yes to those things? How is that going to break your game?