For Nail - The Psion

[Shadowdweller]

Been away a bit.

I would answer: Two similar abilities should be similar in power. SM is balanced wrt other spells and class abilities within the core rules. A-C is far more powerful than SM, yet fills the same role. This is a problem, and detracts from fun.

FWIW, my sympathy. It DOES suck to be outperformed in one's supposed area of expertise. However...

It is a mistake, IMHO, to expect that any two different classes are equally capable in any specific field. Classes have different strengths, different areas of expertise. And this does not make them unbalanced provided there are counter-balancing strengths: In fact it makes things more interesting because it makes them DIFFERENT.

Some core examples, for sake of comparison:

Item: Arcane casters give up quite a bit for their spells. They suffer difficulties with armor, have poor hit points, etc. Divine casters don't suffer these penalties...and yet have the exact same Summon Monster list. Does this mean that the divine version of Summon Monster is overpowered?

Item: Elsewhere wizards gain certain spells at later levels than clerics do. And they get some spells at earlier levels than clerics do. Are these spells overpowered for the class that gets them earlier?

Item: One could argue that arcane casters are better at direct damage, whereas divine casters are better at healing. Are the arcane direct damage spells thus overpowered? Are the divine healing spells?

Personal conclusions: As I've actually stated waaaaaaay earlier in this thread, even considering Astral-Construct and Blasty powers, there are also quite a few categories where (IMO) the arcane spell list far and away beats out the psionic power list. Among them: Battlefield control, party buffs, illusions, protective wardings...though without some means of scoring this probably isn't going to establish much.

 

[Jhulae]

Okay.. Want to compare?

Let's compare..

Which is better? A Pit Fiend or a 'Level 9' Astral Construct?

Which is more powerful? A Balor or a 'Level 9' Astral Contstruct?

Just comparing the abilities, I have to give both comparisons hands down to the Pit Fiend and the Balor being better than the AC on almost every level.

Wizards and Clerics can summon both of those. So, who then has the most powerful summoning spells? Not the Psionicist according to what I see.

 

[Diirk]

Just comparing the abilities, I have to give both comparisons hands down to the Pit Fiend and the Balor being better than the AC on almost every level.

Wizards and Clerics can summon both of those. So, who then has the most powerful summoning spells? Not the Psionicist according to what I see.

To be fair, it doesn't cost 1000 xp to summon an AC 9...

 

[Jhulae]

To be fair, it doesn't cost 1000 xp to summon an AC 9...

It doesn't cost 1000 exp to summon a Pit Fiend either... and, technically, you can compare the pit fiend to a 'level 8' AC..

So, which is more powerful? The Pit Fiend or the Level 8 Astral Construct?

 

[Diirk]

It doesn't cost 1000 exp to summon a Pit Fiend either... and, technically, you can compare the pit fiend to a 'level 8' AC..

So, which is more powerful? The Pit Fiend or the Level 8 Astral Construct?

You mean Greater Planar Binding? Again, AC doesn't take 10 minutes to cast or days to negotiate, plus with the pit fiend's will save and SR positive results are fairly unlikely...

 

[Jhulae]

And, if you're going to compare a Shaper's 'shtick' of creating an AC, then you have to compare it to a Conjurer's 'shtick' of Conjuring creatures.

I could sit and compare a weak class with weak feats all day to anything else and say the better one was overpowered, but if I'm not going to use *everything* in the core to make that comparison, then the comparison is flawed, is it not?

Again, as Scion and others have said, making a comparison to one underpowered summoning spell in no way proves that the Psion is overpowered. It just proves that CM is underpowered.

 

[Seeten]

Some realistic tests: Make a pure Summoner Arcane Caster with all the feats, As I am Necromantically inclined, try a Necromancer/Pale Master with the Libris Mortis Feat trees for Corpse Crafting, and a Psion Shaper with all the appropriate feats to make AC Better.

Then check the Animated Dead with the AC's. I'd be interested in which is better. Once done, make a Cleric with an appropriate PrC focused on summoning, and all the summoner feats, and check it against the Psion Shaper.

When done, try a base druid against an Egoist, all wildshape feats/natural spells, and see who shapechanges/spell casts better, the Egoist, or the Druid.

I am pretty confident in each of these, the Psion makes a reasonable, but less powerful alternative, and keep in mine, in each case, this is ONE type of Psion, and shapers are not egoists are not telepaths etc.

 

[green slime]

Ok then, compared with druids and clerics, psions need a 'major' boost.

I'd disagree with that conclusion.

 

[green slime]

When done, try a base druid against an Egoist, all wildshape feats/natural spells, and see who shapechanges/spell casts better, the Egoist, or the Druid.

Define "better" and you might have a chance.

Better = More powerful spells/powers per day?
Better = Faster shapechanging or casting?
Better = More Flexible? (and what does that mean?)
Better = More spells/powers per day?
Better = More shapes per day?
Better = More powerful shapes per day?
Better = Most mango?

 

[Seeten]

Define "better" and you might have a chance.

Better = More powerful spells/powers per day?
Better = Faster shapechanging or casting?
Better = More Flexible? (and what does that mean?)
Better = More spells/powers per day?
Better = More shapes per day?
Better = More powerful shapes per day?
Better = Most mango?

That depends on what your definition of "is" is.