For the gun people, a crazy player question ...

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'm actually embarassed I still have these sorts of problems in my games. Still haven't found The Perfect Group.

I've got one problem player in my latest D*M D20 game. Guy's just not "getting" it. The kind of guy that sits down at the table and says: "I want to requisition a Barret Light 50 from the Institute." And I say: "You don't need one, they won't give it to you." The moment we start playing.

It's an INVESTIGATIVE game. I've been clear on that since the begining.

Anyway, he does manage to get his hands on a shotgun. Which, I supposed, at least one person in the group should have access TO a longarm, if not carry it constantly.

Anyway, deciding that a shotgun wasn't powerful enough, he wants to build a "Bang Stick" ... I frown, he tries to explain, but I know what the hell it is. A shotgun shell on a stick, basically, that scuba folks use sometimes (though it certainly isn't nice to the sharks).

Thing is, he wants to put three 10-gauge barrels on the thing and "do ... 6d10."

I'm not a gun nut ... he pretends to be, but he's one of those people that thinks Teflon on a bullet makes it penetrate armor. (Or that Pam on a bullet makes it penetrate armor, for that matter.) I've got no clue if anybody could make something like that. Well, I know you CAN make something like that, but would it work? What would the RECOIL be like? I think he described it something like a claw/rake, perpendicular to the bar, swung like a club I guess. I dunno. Seems like a relatively asinine thing to make ... 6d10? ... maybe 4d10 ...

Off the bat I told him it'd be a makeshift weapon, so he'd get a -4 to the attack roll, and he'd have to machine it, but he put all of his skill ranks into Craft (Mechanical) and the DC for a fully operational 9mm autoloader handgun is only 25. ((All the rest are in Demolitions ... ))

Bleh. I'm trying to work with the guy. He's the husband of one of my players (who is a good player) and they're both room-mates with another player (who is a really good player). He, however, is a constant pain in my kiester. He doesn't seem to "get" the style of game. The whole thing REALLY boils down to that, I guess, but it's deal with him or scrap the whole game, which, other than his antics, is turning out really nicely. He accepts my rulings when I make them (without too much argument, anyway), it's just bloody tiring trying to deal with one guy who is trying to build 6d10 "Bang Sticks", coat his bullets in Pam "to totally half their armor bonus", and everything else. So I have to go looking for exactly WHAT a bang-stick is and see if somebody CAN build one with three 10-gauge barrels on it, and see exactly what kind of damage it would do, etc.

And thus I come here, because I know some people (like D. Jorgensen, et al) know a gun from a hole in the head and may have some suggestions.

If it IS possible, I'm figuring something like Craft (Mechanical) DC 22 and DC 12 Wealth check for materials, plus cost of ammo, plus a -4 on all attack rolls, plus um ... 3 full-round actions to reload it? Still, his intended use is to hide somewhere and jump out and surprise the "Monster" or whatever and kill it with 6d10 damage. Gah. What ever happened to just using a freakin' real gun?

--fje

 

[Asmor]

The most powerful explosive projectile in the grenade launches section of the D20 Modern Weapons Locker foes 4d10 damage, and is compared to a shotgun (it consists of lots of little darts).

I'm having trouble understanding what exactly he wants to do... Is he trying to just load 3 rounds of ammo into the chamber instead of 1? But in any case, 6d10 sounds absolutely ludicrous.

Oh, also, you might try asking at totse.com in the "Backyard Ballistics" or "The Right to Bear Arms" forums...

(p.s. Totse is not some gun nut site or something. It's a venue for the free exchange of ideas and has forums and text file repositories encompassing every subject from anarchy to zen)

 

[takyris]

Well, according to the bit of Web research (uh, Google) that I did, divers actually said that adding more shells or using bigger shells really didn't help. Just like you can't just lump all the dynamite together -- it's a demolitions check to make it so that it doesn't explode against itself, so that it blows out correctly. A bad craft check could very well make one that blows his hand off when he jabs somebody with it.

Also, yeah, it's useful against sharks. Why? Because sharks don't frelling grab the stick handle and knock it out of the way. A finely made spear is one thing, but this is a yardstick with a bunch of shotgun shells on the end. Definitely improvised, and definitely one-use, and of course, no Strength damage added.

I wouldn't let him get more than 2d8, regardless of how many he straps on. If he gets enough explosives on there for it to be useful as a damaging device, then he's going to be making a Reflex save himself.

Also note that it's possible that the character is, unintentionally or not, stepping on the toes of another class. This is far less "make a specific weapon" than "mock up something quick and dirty to fake it", and mocking stuff up is the purview of the Field Scientist, who has the "scientific improvisation". Of course, if he's doing it with just craft skills, then you can charge him for purchased equipment and force him to make both a craft(mechanical) check and a demolitions check. If he gets those right, then sure, he's got a one-use melee weapon that strikes at -4 and does 2d8, no strength. It'll definitely either scare off or kill any fish that attack him, but a) It's not as dangerous as, say, a normal gun, and b) It's going to attract all kinds of attention. That's probably an arrest-worthy deal, carrying that around in public.

Just random thoughts. Hope gun people know more than I do. From what I read, it DID work to kill or drive off sharks, though.

 

[Tellerve]

While on one hand you have to at least mildly accept a players ideas for "creativity" that sounds horrifically lame. Really, c'mon, he wants to wander around with a boom-rake? *shakes head solemnly*

Obviously your in a bind with this guy, but have you mentioned it to the other players? Or are you worried that by loosing him you'll loose the group? Are the other players looking as strangely at him as you are? I had a quasi-similar situation with a gaming group a few years back with a guy that had a problem character (and was a bit of a problem player). But discussions with a couple members of the group and then letting him know that his character wasn't going to work solved it. He didn't come back, but I think because I had already explained my case to the group they continued. Or they were just really hungry for some dnd. *shrugs*

Sorry to hear about this in any case.

Tellerve

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yea, I looked it up too, on Google. Apparently, for the sharks, you could just use a blank, since the concussive force of the charge at that range (nil, effectively) was enough. Divers tried using larger cartridges, but all it did was give them a headache with the shockwave running through the water and didn't kill sharks any better. Bigger != Better.

I wouldn't let him get 6d10, which is asinine. But 2d10 is the base damage for a 10-gauge shotgun, which he's already carrying around (occassionally). I dunno ... 3d10 might be appropriate.

He's not trying to stick the three on top of eachother ... basically he wants it to look like a three-tine rake ... of doom.

_____
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On a stick.

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So you swing it like a club trying to hit somebody with it ... which seems awkward as hell. Maybe he meant for it to be like a pitchfork ... Of Doom. Which would be like a regular Bang Stick with a larger head and three different chambers, each with a 10-gauge slug in it.

Thinking of how Double-Tap (2 rounds) and Burst Fire (3 rounds) work I'm thinking maybe 4d10 -IF- it works. Double -Tap adds 1 die, Burst adds 2, and this would be a three round burst ... on the end of a stick. Oi. Bleh.

And, as an Improvised Weapon, it'd have a 50% chance to break entirely every time it is used. If I let it in.

I mean ... considering, it may be a decent idea if you're going to try and attack, I dunno, some Thing Man Was Not Meant To Know or another. It's stupid, but so is attacking a big TMWNMTK in the first place. But he wanted to use it against human opponents.

I just don't get some people.

--fje

 

[NekoAli]

Alrighty... I wouldn't count myself as a gun nut, but I do know a little about ballistics and a lot more about game mechanics. Basically what it sounds like is that this guy just has a need to do lots and lots and lots of damage, regardless to logic, game style or any real need for it. I would first take him aside and have a talk about the style of the game and the fact he really just doesn't need this kind of firepower for your game.

Assuming this doesn't work, or you want to let him get away with kitbashing these bang sticks, here's my thoughts on them. It would definetly be a one shot expendable weapon. Once it goes off, it's destroyed. Kitbashing one would be fairly easy, just get some shotgun shells, a length of pipe, hot glue, nails and tape. Glue shell to end of stick with the nail so that a sharp jab with the bang stick pushes the shell onto the nail and hopefully sets it off. Needless to say, this would be horribly dangerous to carry around regularly. With some better crafting skill and equipment, a makeshift safety could be made so it doesn't go off if it's bumped by accident.

For damage, I would take a key from the Burst Fire feat. Three shots at a single target do +2 dice damage. I would use the same logic with this, but making it an improvised melee weapon. Depending on how long it is, it might have reach and have different concealbility. I don't think you would want it shorter than about 3 feet though, otherwise you're going to get powder burns all over your hand.

 

[takyris]

Thing is, though, as somebody who's played around with tined weapons... an "all tines hit" hit on an opponent has got to be a critical. If you've got a shell on each tine of a pitchfork, the only time all three tines hit somebody is if you've just nailed 'em with a crit. Most of the time, you probably just hit your opponent with one tine -- or more likely, graze them, in the abstract hit point system of d20 Modern. Accepting that a graze is enough to make those shells go off, let's say that that does 2d10 -- plus a little bit from the pitchfork impact, minus a bit from the fact that it's not a perfect design, like a gun-barrel is -- some force is wasted. So, 2d10. If you wanna be generous, you could say that, for three tines, he gets 3 hits, but on a critical, all three go off at once.

But really, you gotta draw the line. What if he grabs one of those nail-covered planks the fakirs lie down on and puts a shotgun shell on each and every nail. That'd be, what, 10 columns x 20 rows x 2d10 per shell, for 400d10 damage on a hit? No. He's trying to game the system, every bit as much as the low-Charisma PC whose player is telling you "Okay, and this is what I say and how I say it so that my low Charisma doesn't come into play," or the guy with no ranks in Disable Device who says, "Okay, but can I look inside the lock and maybe rake this tiny write inside it and see if I can move any of the tumbler pins? That's not that hard."

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yea. Going to be one of those uncomfortable "talks". I know it's coming up. Bleh. I'll have to start looking around for another group, just in case. The behavior is pretty ingrained at this point.

--fje

 

[Tetsubo]

You mentioned in the original post that this is an Investigation Group. I see that as mildly stealthy, private eye sort of thing. How does he carry around a 10 gauge shotgun without drawing a LOT of attaention? Does he actually know how loud one of those is? What does he think he will be investigating, Kodiak Bears?

The Bang-Stick idea is moderately clever. I might bump it up a single die over the normal shotgun damage. It is after all going to be a "contact" shot. Right against a target when it goes off. But I would discount the "triple threat" version right off. The big question is how will he conceal this thing? It will be what, 3' or 4' long?

I have an idea. Let him carry around a few sticks of dynamite. With the blasting caps loaded and fuses ready... then have the next critical that hits the character blow him to teeny little bits... Just an idea mind you...

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, so far, the only times they've tried to attack anybody/anything has been in the middle of the night in relatively unpopulated areas, so nobody sees the shotgun.

And he "wears a duster". But that doesn't really matter. When/if it comes up he wants to attack somebody during the day, he's going to find he's left the toys in the van.

Definately mildly-stealthy. It's a Dark*Matter game, so their REAL job is to investigate strange things, gather information, and report home. Everybody else has gotten that to a T, and they love it. Then there's the guy that wants to carry around a 10-gauge shotgun and wear a Light-Duty vest all day, blow things up, shoot things with shotguns, and when somebody says: "Don't screw with them, they're heavy hitters.", tries to build a 6d10 jump gun.

The bang stick isn't as horrible an idea as all that ... If it were called for. If they had, like, some pipe and a workshop and some nails and a handful of shotgun shells and no shotgun. But the whole purpose behind it is to deal massive amounts of damage in one blow, force a MDT save, and 'win' instantly.

Bleeeeehhhhhgh.

--fje