For the gun people, a crazy player question ...

Okay, somebody invoked my name. A bang stick, huh?

This guy is why I've been working on turning the design of new firearms into a combination of a new skill and feats. making a new gun requires more than knowing how to create the various parts. Some of the techniques require special tools and training a machinist will not have (creating a rifled barrel, for instance, or chroming said barrel), and the ability to simply design the weapon to begin with should fall outside the Craft (mechanical) skill as well. That damned skill is just way too broad. The way it is written, a PC could make a brand new gun, then turn right around build a F1 racer with the ease of blowing his nose, then turn around and design a brand new jumbo jet airliner for Boeing....

You've gone down the right route by declaring it an improvised weapon. have him write a description for you, and apply danger in accordance to that.

First off, as with any improvised weapon, there's a chance it will explode when used. He's going to be making it from pipe stock, not milling it for solid stock. And any sheet metal parts will end up made from folded sheet metal, rather then being stamped from a block. Given that, I'd suggest he has a 1 in 6 to 1 in 10 chance it just blows up in his face whenever he uses it, destroying the weapon and doing all that damage to him as well. Only way around this is if he's taking his character out of the game for a few weeks game time and uses the proper facilities. Hell, even then, it might not turn out being any more safe and reliable than a "saturday night special" (dirt cheap mass produced firearms that are of such poor quality that they frequently went to pieces before 100 rounds were fired through them).

Second, again, being an impromptu weapon, if he doesn't describe a safety in the written description, there is none. That means rough handling can result in it going off at inopportune times.

Third, he's loading three barrels. it will take twice as long to load as a double barrelled shotgun.

Fourth, no 6d10. Even though a bang stick uses ammunition, it really shouldn't be treated like a gun. 2d10 for the first shell, +1d10 for each additional round fired off at the same moment. The shells = 4d10 damage, only a little more than the heaviest AMR rifles in WL.

Fifth, it's heavy and awkward; three shotgun shells on the end of a pole. there will be penalties to hit from that, too. Waving such an unbalanced item around will tire the PC out quickly, too.

Is this any help?

BTW, if you want to have fun and you have a copy of one of my Big Bang books, drop the book in front of him and tell him the author has personally advised you on how to proceed with the implementation of his bang stick idea. :D
 
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The key advice I can offer is, don't let a small problem like this ruin a gaming group. If he was ruining everyone's fun, then it might be an issue, and everyone would be talking to him about it. But, and no offense intended, it sounds like it's just you who's having trouble.

Talk to the guy and tell him he's stressing you out, and that you want to keep him in the game, but you don't like the headache of having to compromise between the style of game everyone else is playing, and the style he seems to want to play. You don't want to lose a gaming group, and . . . well, here's the thing: is he a friend outside the game? If so, you definitely don't want this to be an issue.

If he's not, well, maybe you shouldn't be gaming with him. Or maybe you should try to become his friend. Mostly, though, don't get aggravated over these kinds of things.

He's trying to power game, and you have to realize that's not a 'bad thing.' It's the way he wants to game. You don't scrap the game because of it, and you don't piss him off because you have different ideas. You're the GM, and your duty is to entertain the players (and have a little fun in the process). You just adapt to the fact that he's going to want to kill things. If that means making the 'monster' tougher so it will last through his boom-stick, do it. Describe that the bang heavily injures the beastie, so that he feels his idea was well-conceived. As GM, though, you don't actually have to let it change anything. Just give the damned monster more hit points.

This really is a minor issue. It's just the repetitiveness of him trying to get what he wants is stressing you out. So:

1. Tell him he's not quite playing the same style of game everyone else is.
2. Let him get what he wants, within reason. Tone down the power he wants.
3. Let him use what he makes. If necessary, bend the rules so that him using it is only a little more useful than a normal gun would be. He wants to out-gun the monster, so you owe it to him to let him have the type of fun he wants.
4. Explain to him that you're going to make some compromises so that he's better able to do the types of things he wants. Ask him to, please, consider doing the same for him. I'm willing to bet he's a little unhappy too.
 

I agree with RangerWickett's advice and I'm sure the info Dana gave you will be very handy for that conversation. I'd like to offer another observation you might mention to him: If this is a good, realistic idea, why hasn't anybody done it in the real world? SWAT teams and other folks who go into dangerous enclosed places would develop something like this if it would work better than a regular gun. Since they haven't, you've got to think there's a reason.
 

Man, there are just all kinds of things wrong with this. Yeah, you could probably do it, but...

1. The first time a real cop finds this on you, you're in a world of hurt. Beyond the weapons charge, if you're carrying something like this around, the cops will think you have a reason to. Then they'll start digging. The Hoffman Institute doesn't like people inside digging, much less outsiders.

2. Have you ever noticed most shotguns have a shoulder stock on them? They aren't there for decoration. If he tried to cook off all three barrels at once, he'd be lucky if he didn't have a broken hand or a few missing fingers.

3. That's gonna be loud as all get-out. Another bad thing when you're generally trying to be sneaky.

4. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier for him to just take a hacksaw to an off-the-rack 12 ga.?
 

OK, in the interest of curiosity, I went out and tried this...

DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF! I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING, YOU PROBABLY DO NOT!

OK, so, I got a rake, and using mechanical know-how, I fitted tubes of steel pipe to the rake-handle, with threaded joiners on it. I added padding on it, just in case. I added three cut-down "zip-guns" with 12 guage shells in each of them. It took a bit of working, but I added padded firing studs, so it would only go off on impact. <Supposedly>

OK, drop test...

Failed. 10 out of 10 times.
  1. 3 shells
  2. Middle Shell
  3. Right shell
  4. Middle and Right shell
  5. Right Shell
  6. Middle and Left Shell
  7. Left and right shell
  8. Middle Shell
  9. ALl three shells
  10. All three shells
{Above detonations occurred with wad-charges}
The detonation poundage range was 2 feet with 2.2 pounds on a digital scale.

Now, Clay depth and damage tests...
Sadly enough, the side by sides ones did the most. Judging from penetration and explosive damage, it was only 50% increased.

Sorry, his "Explosive Farm Tool" required knowledge in what I was doing...
Did as much damage as a double-barrelled shotgun (Less, actually, my double-barrel did more trauma and damage)....
Lodged 22 fragments in my protective gear {And I thank you, Oh Lord, for Kevlar and Lexan} and the booth...
Six times broke the tool, requiring extensive modification (I eventually settled on plastic core with 4" of steel sections, with a 1" metal "flexi-pipe" section, and a stainless steel head...

Now, for collateral damage...
On the forward swing, damage to the barrier {1/2" of Lexan with a light chalk coating to register impacts} that would be lethal or seriously injurous to an unarmored weilder occurred over 50% of the time...
Twice the device swung back on the testing device with over 150 lbs of force (Based on a torque scale) and struck the safety booth...
Every time the device caused major kinetic shock damage to "Psuedo-Hand" (Which consisted of 4 latext gloves layered together with ketchup in between them and filled with strawberry jello}, in four of those times, the hand exploded from the absorbed shock.

This doesn't mention the 110 decibel eruption.

The results of the Hammerhead assisted experiment?

Let him use it.

3d6 to point of impact. 2d6 (no save, no roll to hit) to any weilder, 1d6 damage to anyone within 10 feet (Refleck, DC: 15 to avoid), -4 to hit, not very concealable, with an additional 1d6 points of lethal damage and 1d6 points of nonlethal damage to the weilder.

BTW-Yanking the trigger on my Colt .45 at 20 feet (It's well worn, but maintained) for a three round grouping in less than 6 inches, in under 6 seconds, resulted in much more damage.

Oh, yeah, and the neighbors called the Sheriff who came out to see what I was doing, and then yelled at me for 20 minutes for conducting experiments, took away the "Experimental Weapon Extension" and threatened to give me a black eye if I did it again. As well as came back that night, drank my beer, and helped me disassemble my "Test Chamber".

So...

Don't try this at home...
 

Warlord Ralts said:
OK, in the interest of curiosity, I went out and tried this...

Hahahahahahahahaha!

I love having an enormous group of web-buddies with a wide range of skills. Ralts, you are a more dedicated dude than I.
 

Warlord Ralts said:
OK, in the interest of curiosity, I went out and tried this...

*snip*

You actually went and tried to make the said weapon? You crazy? And more importantly, are you serious? Just seems a little weird that you would try out this weapon just to see if it would work.
 

I didn't have anything better to do, I was bored, and had some time on my hand. Plus, I have all kinds of little helper monkeys (The Hammerhead Squad) that thought this would be something fun to take part in.

As for crazy, not really. About the most dangerous thing was when Hammerhead Dan was staring at Hammer-Babe Tammy's breasts and hit his own hand with his hammer, and Hammerhead Bri glued his leg to his hand.

I didn't have much better to do, I recovering from surgery and extremely bored, the Hammerhead Crew was bored, so I oversaw what was going on, gave instructions, and drank lemonade.
 
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HeapThaumaturgist said:
I'm not a gun nut ... he pretends to be, but he's one of those people that thinks Teflon on a bullet makes it penetrate armor. (Or that Pam on a bullet makes it penetrate armor, for that matter.) I've got no clue if anybody could make something like that.

Hmmm... you'd think that if it were that easy to make AP rounds that the US Military would make PAM a standard issue item. :)

The way REAL AP rounds work (only my experience with the M-16A2 from my days in the USAF) is that they have a steel penetrator in the bullet which is really just a steel rod. If it hits body armor, the penetrator slides free from the bullet and pierces the armor. It pierces the armor because it concentrates all that force on one point instead of mushrooming out like a normal bullet does.

I'd deal with him by running a totally non combat oriented game. Let him build that bang stick, a lot of good it will do him if he never gets into a situation where he can use it. I also don't know about the legality of keeping such a weapon. If he has it stowed in the trunk of his car have him pulled over by the cops because his car matches the description of a car involved in some other crime.

Edit: One of the things I don't like about d20 is the way armor works. Pick up an old copy of Twilight:2000 and let him have the automatic shotgun. Buckshot has absolutely NO penetration value. With that rules set a shotgun attack to the chest of someone wearing a kevlar vest will probably knock the wind out of their lungs but do no real and lasting damage to the target. AC in d20 just makes you harder to hit... fine for a fantasy setting but not so much for a modern combat setting.
 
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It's like MythBusters, on the board. Excellent.

Ralts, you're officially the coolest crazy person I don't know.

That's very useful. I had a suspicion that strapping a bunch of shells on the end of a stick was probably not a good idea, but I can't walk out to the shop and build one to demonstrate how much of a Very Bad Idea it is. Very nice.

Take any photos of the monstrosity blowing up the hand that rocks the cradle?

<edit: For Calico>

Well, yes. As usual, I knew nothing about Teflon, but no matter how little I know about physics and bullets, I know spraying a little vegetable oil on them isn't going to suddenly have them slicing through kevlar like magic.

Looking around, I found a really good article from The Rifleman ... Feb 1989, I think. Anyway, the whole thing with "Cop Killer" and "Teflon Coated" bullets was a bunch of media hooey. AP rounds are case-harden steel or hard brass with a point on them. Holds its shape, punches through the kevlar. Kevlar works because it is strong and thick and the lead bullets deform and spread the kinetic energy through the weave.

Teflon was added to the bullets because the hard metal was dinging up the inside of the barrels. Doesn't do diddly for penetration.

--fje
 
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