Forcecage and Elementals question

[Aluvial]

If you were to try and capture an elemental in the 20' barred cage version of Forcecage, could it escape through the gaps?

I could reasonably see that an air, a water, or a fire elemental could go through the gaps. I could even pretend to think that an earth elemental could "pour" through the gaps (I may be pushing it here).

Para-elementals, Smoke -- yes. Ooze -- yes. Magma -- yes. Ice?

Quasi-elementals, (positive) Mineral? Lightning -- yes. Radiance -- yes. Steam -- yes.

Quasi-ele (negative) Dust -- yes. Vacuum -- yes. Ash -- yes. Salt -- conceivably.

My current situation is with an Ice Elemental. It has Ice Glide, which works like an earth elemental's Earth Glide.

An earth elemental can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence.

Under movement modes the SRD has this to say

A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

Under the Earth Subtype:

Earth creatures usually have burrow speeds, and most earth creatures can burrow through solid rock.

So, my situation. My ice elemental is IN a frozen river and is emerging from the ice to pound on some hapless PC's. The party wizard casts the barred version of Forcecage around it. Can it Ice Glide through the ice to escape?

Thanks for any help!

Aluvial

 

[Greenfield]

The Force Cage extends on all sides, top, bottom, and all around.

If it couldn't slip through it normally, it can't ice glide through it either.

 

[Aluvial]

The Force Cage extends on all sides, top, bottom, and all around.

If it couldn't slip through it normally, it can't ice glide through it either.

I'm speaking of the barred 20' cage (with the 6" gaps) version of Forcecage.

Adding a bit to my own discussion, I suppose this would be the same thing as if an earth elemental was moving through stone. You knew it was there (I don't know how, but you do; perhaps it ended its movement just inside of a wall) and you throw a Forcecage (somehow, centering the effect on the wall, yet still surrounding it) that traps it. The holes are 6".

Can the earth elemental Earth Glide through the holes? If no, then why not?

Aluvial

 

[Greenfield]

I generally see Earth Elementals as being at least partly made of stone. Sort of the way a human body has hard bones in it, they have a stone "skeleton". If you want a fluid form, you're talking mud or ooze.

Ice Elementals are definitely made of ice, and seriously lack fluidity. Again, if you want a fluid form, you want water.

I might allow a small Earth Elemental to slide through the bars. Probably an Escape Artist check of some sort. Same for a small Ice Elemental, or any other small creature. That is, it's a feature of "Small", not "Elemental".

Whether either Ice or Earth is "swimming" in their element or not, they still have their form, and the basic restrictions of that form. If they won't fit through the bars outside of their element, they won't fit through while gliding either.

Not the conditional, by the way. If they won't fit normally, they wont fit while gliding.

So decide if you'd let them flow through in open space, and you have your answer.

 

[Sekhmet]

Although an Earth or Ice Elemental can "glide" through their respective terrain, they do not become smaller in the process. If they are too large to fit through the 6" gap in the bars, I would rule that they cannot glide free.

 

[kitcik]

You're the DM - you make the call.

Assuming, from the way you worded the question, you want the Ice Elemental to get through, but you don't want the players to think you are nerfing their spell:

Tell the players that they hear loud cracking and booming noises coming from within the cage (like those heard when a glacier calves).

They can see shards of ice starting to protrude through the bars of the cage.

Then give them like 2-3 rounds before the dude busts out. They still got pretty good utility out of the spell.

 

[Aluvial]

Ok, I have to agree, although I really wanted to say that all elementals have some trait of moving through small spaces because of their elemental makeup.

Did anyone agree with me about the other elemental types? Fire, water, air, and the like should be able to get through.

I really want Earth/Ice Glide to allow something to move through the element without worrying about a creature's size.

Anyhow, I blew this spell on two factors.

One, size. My creature is humanoid with a 20' base (Gargantuan - Tall). I should have never allowed the cage to fit it.

I also missed the 1,500 gp ruby dust component. I should have caught this, and am now in the process of highlighting my book's components in orange so that I don't miss the components again.

Aluvial

 

[Sekhmet]

Air Elementals are amorphous, which means that they absolutely can slip through the holes.
Water and Fire Elementals are not, nor do they have any properties which would suggest that they can split themselves apart or become small enough to slip through the holes (according to their Monster Manual entries). Although, I'm inclined to allowed a Water Elemental to, so long as they can touch a source of water that extends to both sides of the cage.


I'm afraid I can't speak for an Ice Elemental, as I'm unsure of which book they're in and could not find them with a quick glance through.

Remember that, even should an Earth Elemental be too large for a particular space, he can still travel through it - he'll just bulge out of either side, so long as there is nothing there to hinder his movement.

 

[Empirate]

I'm pretty sure Elementals are quite solid. I'm solely going with RAW right now, so if you want to make a different decision based on your interpretation of an Elemental's anatomic makeup, you're free to do so - but there's no rules text to support this.

Let's start here: some oozes have a line that reads like this

An ochre jelly can grow to a diameter of about 15 feet and a thickness of about 6 inches, but can compress its body to fit into cracks as small as 1 inch wide.

Other Oozes, like the Gelatinous Cube (obviously) and the Black Pudding (less obvious...), don't have such a line, at least not in SRD. I don't have the Monster Manual handy, though. Also, you might interpret the following line from the general "Ooze" entry to allow all these creatures to slip through cracks:

Oozes are amorphous creatures that live only to eat.

"Amorphous" is not a defined game term, though, except in the case of a very few creatures that have it listed as a special quality and explained, like the Gibbering Mouther. In that specific case, though, the Amorphous quality doesn't let the GM squeeze through anywhere, it's just immune to flanks and crits.


However, the Elementals' descriptions don't include similar statements about their malleability or their ability to pass through openings smaller than themselves. The only similar abilities I might maybe consider Forcecage-defeating are the Air Elemental's Whirlwind and the Water Elemental's Vortex (which only works underwater). These are worded "the X Elemental can transform itself into a Whirlwind/Whirlpool...", which could be considered sufficient, since normal whirlwinds and whirlpools will probably pass through a Forcecage just fine.

 

[Aluvial]

I appreciate the opinions.

I just can't wrap my head around the element of water or fire as being solid at all. Earth, yes. Ice, unfortunately for my encounter, yes. But I'm houseruleing this one. Fire absolutely can slip through cracks, just as readily as air passes through them, and water pours through them. They're pure elements. Water flows through cracks. Fire moves through holes. Air passes through the smallest of spaces. Earth, and this is my interpretation, is tricky, but, I can see it reforming after sifting through 6" gaps. In fact, the only one that I have the biggest problem with is ice.

Para-elementals are in the Planar Handbook, are updated for 3.5 in an update book, and have para-elemental monoliths in a Dragon mag. I was using the Ice Monolith.

My final decision was to have elementals of all types and sizes be able to fit through holes. I do the same with oozes. My logic is to make them all uniform to avoid confusion. I reason, and surprisingly my players tended to agree with me (which is a shocker), that since they are formed of the element in question, they have the properties of those elements. Water flows through cracks and that's that. Air and fire move through cracks as well. I may change Earth and Ice, but I don't know.

In my encounter, I used a poster's suggestion and had the Ice elemental break apart and reform on the other side of the force cage bars. It took 4 rounds as it cracked apart. Since the forcecage was embedded in the iced over river, I used the Ice Glide as justification. The players were happy to buy 4 rounds and did a bit of damage to it as it moved free. In the future, I told them that elementals will move through small cracks freely.... and oozes as well!

Aluvial