Forest Gnomes & ECL

[Dax Doomslayer]

Hi Folks,

I posted this on the General Boards, but figured I'd pass it through here as the responses starting getting a tad bit comical. I was just wondering if there are any sources converting the 2E version of the Forest Gnome into the 3E version.

The monster manual indicates that they get the gnome abilities plus the following:

Pass Without Trace (as spell)
+1 to hit Kobolds; Goblinoids; Orc and Reptillion Humanoids
+4 to Hide (+8 in wooded area)

What sort of ECL modifier (if any) do you think this should add?

It seems as if +1 ECL is in order (I'm assuming that the +4 to hide in the MM is above and beyond the normal size adjustment).

Are there any "official" or "semi-official" sources that have converted these little folk? The Kingdom of Kalamar Setting was mentioned but unfortunately I do not have access to that. Any help given is greatly appreciated.

 

[Kershek]

There is a Forest Gnome in Dragon issue #291. I don't remember its abilities offhand, though.

 

[Benben]

If you can wait a bit Races of Faerun, which should be out in March is going to cover these guys.

They should be +1 ECL, since they are better Rock (aka Standard) Gnomes: more bonuses to hit, and the two stealth benefits.

If you drop Rock Gnomes from the campaign I would probably slip them down to ECL 0. -2 Str and small size has many hinderances, and their benefits, although flavourful don't make up for it in a standard game.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Wierd I consider the gnome one of the powerhouse races. The -2 str is absolutely meaningless it is perhaps the best stat to take a hit in, the small size has benefits as well as negs. The only real neg they have and it is big is the 20' move.

I'd wager many a mage think the +2 con makes up for all of that in itself, and the other bennies are just gravy.

So um yeah +1ecl seems good for a forest gnome.

 

[Kershek]

I have a gnome and the 20ft move isn't always an issue. Usually, when outside, he's on his riding dog.

 

[Benben]

Wierd I consider the gnome one of the powerhouse races. The -2 str is absolutely meaningless it is perhaps the best stat to take a hit in, the small size has benefits as well as negs. The only real neg they have and it is big is the 20' move.

In many ways they are a powerhouse race, but that still doesn't mean people will play them. Gnomes are easily the least popular race, so adding a little spice to the pot to get somebody to play them is fair.

-2 Str is nothing to sneeze at. When the races were balanced in 3E Strength was viewed as the most important stat.

 

[Benben]

There is a Forest Gnome in Dragon issue #291. I don't remember its abilities offhand, though.

I don't have the magazine in front of me but I believe that Dragon #291 covered Forest and Rock gnomes in cultural detail. River and Arcane gnomes were given statistics though (both ECL 0).

 

[Shard O'Glase]

In many ways they are a powerhouse race, but that still doesn't mean people will play them. Gnomes are easily the least popular race, so adding a little spice to the pot to get somebody to play them is fair.

-2 Str is nothing to sneeze at. When the races were balanced in 3E Strength was viewed as the most important stat.

And I understand the conept of them saying str is better. But any of the stats that in 2e we'd consider a prime stat are meaningless if not considered in conjunction with classes. What does a -2 str mean to a rogue, wiz or sor, absolutely nothing. What does a +2 con mean to every class, a heck of a lot, and even more to the rogue, wiz, and sor with their crap HP. Now people can choose to play a class/race combo that isn't optimized, but that doens't weaken the class or the race individually. A chr penalty isn't a huge penalty because dwarfs would make poorer bards and sorcerers than other races. Str is only a big penalty to fighters/rangers/paladins. and maybe monks. It is a small penalty to clerics and druids, and it isnt'a hit to rogues/wiz/sor types.

And when it comes down to it a hit in str is the best hit ebcause you are picking your classes they aren't randomly assigned. And if you pick a semi apprpriate class it isn't a hit, because while str is powerful it is fairly focussed. Heck I think every stat excpet perhaps CHR is worse to take a hit in. and even Chr is probably worse depending on the camapign.

At the same time I think str is one of the best stats to get a benefit in, because agian you pick your class and if you pick a class focussed on str it really is a big benefit.

They may be unatractive to play but I don't believe that is stat based. I think they need to work on the flavor text if they want more people to play them.

 

[Benben]

I hope you'll forgive a little snippage.

What does a -2 str mean to a rogue, wiz or sor, absolutely nothing.

I think it means a lot to everybody at 1st-3rd levels. At many times through these levels the characters will be forced to rely on their combat abilites, and their limited BAB is hurt even more with the penalty to damage.

And when it comes down to it a hit in str is the best hit ebcause you are picking your classes they aren't randomly assigned. And if you pick a semi apprpriate class it isn't a hit, because while str is powerful it is fairly focussed. Heck I think every stat excpet perhaps CHR is worse to take a hit in. and even Chr is probably worse depending on the camapign.

Now personally, in terms of penalties I don't worry about the loss of the stat, except in the case of Intelligence. Skill ranks give a lot of options and flavour to a character and the loss of those is severely limiting to me.

They may be unatractive to play but I don't believe that is stat based. I think they need to work on the flavor text if they want more people to play them.

Yes and no.

Gnomes do need some flavour improvements. Personally, moving them away from the Krynn archetype, and more towards magical tricksters and earth spirits will get more people to play them.

The inclusion of natural illusion abilities in gnomes made them much more interesting as a playable race. This is a mechanical change that does help.