(Forge of Fury) I choked in the clutch (Some small spoilers)

[Shadowdancer]

Our group just started the Forge of Fury module on Friday night. We started out pretty good, found the right mountain and all. We crept up the path leading to the dwarven stronghold. We caught the two orcs standing guard on the path by surprise.

Our party has three 2nd level fighter/2nd level rogue characters. And all can shoot a bow pretty well, although two are better than the other. My character is one of the fighter/rogues who is good with a bow. So the three of us decide we will sneak to within 30 feet of the orcs so we can get a sneak attack. We all make our move silent and hide roles with no problem.

My character, a male elf, and the one played by my friend Georgette, a female elf, are the best ones with a bow. With all of our bonuses for feats, mighty composite longbows, masterwork arrows, etc, each character has a +10 to hit with a bow. With the sneak attack, that's +14. Patty's character, a human, is only a +8 to hit normally, +12 on sneak attacks.

So we decide that Georgette's character will take the orc on the left -- she has quick draw, so the DM said she can get off two shots. My character, also with quick draw, will take two shots at the orc on the right. The second shot for each of us will be without the sneak attack bonus, however. If either of us miss, Patty's character -- no quick draw, so only one shot -- will shoot.

Georgette hits her orc and kills it with one arrow. I roll -- a 1! I missed. My next shot, I roll a 2! Another miss. Georgette shoots at this orc, but doesn't hit -- I think she rolled a 5. Patty shoots, and she misses with a 4.

So we roll for iniative now, and we all roll higher than the orc. Georgette goes first. Since the orc is still flat-footed, she gets a sneak attack. And kills it with a single arrow.

I cannot believe how badly we all rolled trying to hit that second orc. Thankfully, Georgette got two good shots that killed them before they could raise the alarm. I hope our rolling gets better when we get inside the mountain, or I have a feeling our characters won't last long.

 

[Black Omega]

My character, a male elf, and the one played by my friend Georgette, a female elf, are the best ones with a bow. With all of our bonuses for feats, mighty composite longbows, masterwork arrows, etc, each character has a +10 to hit with a bow. With the sneak attack, that's +14. Patty's character, a human, is only a +8 to hit normally, +12 on sneak attacks.

I'll probably regret asking this but...where is this +4 on a sneak attack coming from? Sneak attacks don't give that bonus, they just apply when the opponant has now Dex bonus to AC.

So we decide that Georgette's character will take the orc on the left -- she has quick draw, so the DM said she can get off two shots. My character, also with quick draw, will take two shots at the orc on the right. The second shot for each of us will be without the sneak attack bonus, however.

Why? You get the damage bonus with a sneak attack when they are flat footed. That state lasts until their round. Just curious...

 

[Shadowdancer]

It is my understanding, and the DM's, that a rogue gets a +4 bonus to hit on a sneak attack. Maybe we're wrong, will have to double check this.

Also, if a rogue has more than one attack in a round, you can only use a sneak attack on the first attack -- you can't take the time to properly aim the second attack to get the bonus damage. Again, maybe we're mistaken on the rules, but that's how we've been handling it so far.

 

[Madfox]

I am going to be a bit nit-picky here and if you prefer slightly modified rules more fun to you.

Actually, a rogue does get a sneak attack with all his attacks. You are refering to the time when a rogue makes several attack rolls with ONE attack (shurikens and some spells mainly). Still, your DM allowed rapid shot in the surprise round which is strictly also against the rules. During the surprise round only partial actions are allowed and rapid shot is a full round action. Sneak attack does NOT give any extra bonusses on the attack roll.

 

[Black Omega]

It is my understanding, and the DM's, that a rogue gets a +4 bonus to hit on a sneak attack. Maybe we're wrong, will have to double check this.

Also, if a rogue has more than one attack in a round, you can only use a sneak attack on the first attack -- you can't take the time to properly aim the second attack to get the bonus damage. Again, maybe we're mistaken on the rules, but that's how we've been handling it so far.

This might be worth looking up. Sneak attacks apply when your opponent is flatfooted, losing his Dex bonus to AC. According to the Attack Roll Mod table (8-8, page 132 PHB) the modifiers for this are +0/+0 for melee/ranged. Your bonus is they are probably a lower AC because of losing Dex and the extra damage.

Looking up the info on sneak attack, I don't find anything about it only applying to one attack per round. It seems to apply to all attacks meeting the criteria of the opponent being flanked or otherwise denied his Dex bonus to AC, unless the FAQ or errata changed this.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, there are a lot of House Rules going on in the scenario you described. Which is fine, as long as everybody's happy with the way the DM's ruling, and as long as anyone new to your game understands what the House Rules are

By the rules, though :

A defender who is surprised or flat-footed loses his Dex bonus to AC, but there is no special bonus to attack them.

You might be confusing it for the rule about "Helpless Defenders". You get a +4 bonus to attack someone who is "at your mercy" - bound, asleep, paralysed, unconscious, etc. Just not knowing you're there doesn't qualify you for this. As well at the bonus to attack, you get to treat a Helpless Defender as if he had a Dex score of 0 : that is, he gets no Dex bonus, and a -5 Dex penalty to his AC. A Helpless Defender is the only situation in which an attacker can perform a Coup de Grace.

What the DM might consider is allowing you the +2 bonus to attack granted to invisible attackers in certain situations. I would consider this in the case of a completely unseen rogue taking a sniper-shot at a guard, but not in the case of a rogue with the advantage of surprise taking a shot at a flat-footed guard who has seen him.

Secondly - Quick Draw has no effect on bows. It's useful if you throw daggers, because drawing a dagger is normally a Move-Equivalent Action, restricting you to one thrown dagger in any round. Quick Draw lets you draw a dagger as a free action, so you can throw as many daggers as you have ranged attacks, with a full attack action. But note that with a BAB of less than 6, and without the Rapid Shot feat, you can still only throw one dagger in a round, even with Quick Draw.

The reason QD doesn't affect bows is because drawing ammunition (as opposed to weapons, like daggers) is already a free action. You can take as many shots with a bow, or a sling, or a repeating crossbow, as you have attacks.

So if your archers have Rapid Shot, they can take two shots in any round they can take a full attack action. Note that this does not include surprise rounds, because you can't make a full attack with a partial action.

The last thing you're not doing by the rules is that any attack against an opponent denied his Dex bonus (such as flat-footed, as in the case of surprise), or against a flanked opponent, is considered a sneak attack. Obviously some creatures are immune to sneak attacks, and you can't use them from more than 30' away, and certain abilities (like Uncanny Dodge) can negate the required conditions. But if you can make four attacks in a round, and you win initiative, and you have surprise, then you can make one attack in the surprise round, and four in "round one" of combat, and get the extra sneak attack damage on all of them.

Like I say, if everyone's happy with the way you're doing it now, there's no problem. But if you want to do things by the rules, draw the DM's attention to pages 132-133 in the PHB in particular.

-Hyp.

 

[Bronn Spellforger]

In our campaign, an archer who rolls a 1 needs to make another roll to see if he fumbles... if he does, his bowstring snaps! That would've been terrible for you.

BTW, we just finished the first part of that adventure (my DM used the first scene, then made up his own stuff). All I can say is, you'd better get some better rolls once you're inside!!