D&D 4E Forgotten Realms 4e Changes: Good/Bad?

[Obryn]

My favorite version of the Realms is the Grey Box, back from before the setting exploded into novel-bloated insanity with Chosen and Gods and Elminster and Drizztmania and mortals ascending ... yeah... It's a barebones setting with good flavor, and a strong sense of "This is your world, go play in it."

My second-favorite is the 4e Realms, which pared down all the lore to a newly-manageable size. I've recently checked out the Campaign Guide again, and I honestly think it gets a bad rap... While the map is intensely bad, the actual content of the book is pretty high-quality. I can see myself running a game there down the road.

-O

 

[vagabundo]

Funny you should say that...they did have Ed contribute, although I am not sure the extent of his efforts on it.

50,000 words I believe.

A decent chunk anyway.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

My favorite version of the Realms is the Grey Box, back from before the setting exploded into novel-bloated insanity with Chosen and Gods and Elminster and Drizztmania and mortals ascending ... yeah... It's a barebones setting with good flavor, and a strong sense of "This is your world, go play in it."

My second-favorite is the 4e Realms, which pared down all the lore to a newly-manageable size. I've recently checked out the Campaign Guide again, and I honestly think it gets a bad rap... While the map is intensely bad, the actual content of the book is pretty high-quality. I can see myself running a game there down the road.

This. I also liked some of the later supplements, e.g. Dwarves Deep and Faiths & Avatars.

Btw, Ed Greenwood has also been writing DDI articles for FR.

 

[Felon]

What I hate about 4e FR: no effort was made to provide a consolidated rundown of what happened to the pantheon(s) of the Realm. To find out what happened to Tyr (for the sake of the party's resident paladin) I had to read and read before I found a passing reference to his demise. Some gods are still just MIA.

What I like about 4e FR: Mystra is dead. The idea of all magic in the cosmos flowing through one god always seemed like a really bad idea to me, especially when that god is good-aligned. Then they came up with the shadow weave to provide an evil alternative, which was the only way to patch the situation at the time. Now arcane magic is decentralized and divorced from divine authority, which I imagine is appealing to those who play arcane casters.

In general, playing D&D in FR in previous editions felt like playing Star Wars. You were a guest in this world, a minor character overshadowed by the resident heroes, unable to effect major changes. Now WotC seems to have made a priority of presenting FR as an RPG setting to at least the same degree that it's a setting for novels.

 

[Obryn]

This. I also liked some of the later supplements, e.g. Dwarves Deep and Faiths & Avatars.

Good point! I should have mentioned that I also like most of the FR-series of supplements for regional detail, both 1e and 2e. Specifically, I have a soft spot for the Horde setting - again, it's mostly barebones and mysterious. (And the maps are just plain sweet.) It's somewhere between 1991 and 1993 or so that the setting started getting overwhelming, IMO.

Heck, pretty much everything in 1e (and early 2e) Forgotten Realms is so rules-light that it can be used for any edition without conversion.

-O

 

[Hawkeye]

In general, playing D&D in FR in previous editions felt like playing Star Wars. You were a guest in this world, a minor character overshadowed by the resident heroes, unable to effect major changes.

Only if you ignored Rule Zero. We played in the FR for years in our group and we never felt like we were the sideshow. We were the ones who saved the Realms time and time again. Elminster, Khelben etc... were all background characters. Heck, we even built a small city when we got to our epic levels.

Hawkeye

 

[Shazman]

What I hate about 4e FR: no effort was made to provide a consolidated rundown of what happened to the pantheon(s) of the Realm. To find out what happened to Tyr (for the sake of the party's resident paladin) I had to read and read before I found a passing reference to his demise. Some gods are still just MIA.

What I like about 4e FR: Mystra is dead. The idea of all magic in the cosmos flowing through one god always seemed like a really bad idea to me, especially when that god is good-aligned. Then they came up with the shadow weave to provide an evil alternative, which was the only way to patch the situation at the time. Now arcane magic is decentralized and divorced from divine authority, which I imagine is appealing to those who play arcane casters.

In general, playing D&D in FR in previous editions felt like playing Star Wars. You were a guest in this world, a minor character overshadowed by the resident heroes, unable to effect major changes. Now WotC seems to have made a priority of presenting FR as an RPG setting to at least the same degree that it's a setting for novels.

Really, exactly who forced others to put NPC's from novels in others campaigns? I don't recall anything in any FR campaign product saying that Drizzt, Elminster, etc had to make appearances or be the central figures in every FR campaign. I see this same lame argument trotted out over and over again to explain why people hated pre-4e FR or to defend the 4e changes to the FR. Quite frankly, it is so ridiculous that it is laughable. If PC's are overshadowed by NPC's, you have only the DM to blame. A bad DM like that wouldn't need novel NPC's to overshadow your characters. He can easily make his own super powerful DMPC's to do so.

 

[caudor]

Well, I enjoy the reboot. I'm glad things were shaken up. It left a freshness to the realms that I really enjoy.

I have not yet read any of the 4e FR novels, but I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Felon]

Really, exactly who forced others to put NPC's from novels in others campaigns? I don't recall anything in any FR campaign product saying that Drizzt, Elminster, etc had to make appearances or be the central figures in every FR campaign. I see this same lame argument trotted out over and over again to explain why people hated pre-4e FR or to defend the 4e changes to the FR. Quite frankly, it is so ridiculous that it is laughable. If PC's are overshadowed by NPC's, you have only the DM to blame. A bad DM like that wouldn't need novel NPC's to overshadow your characters. He can easily make his own super powerful DMPC's to do so.

I find the "blame the DM" line to be epitome of lame cliches trotted out over and over again.

Put aside the boorish attitude for a second to consider that if a lot of different people keep encountering the same barrier, there might be something to it. If a DM ran a 3.5 campaign in the Silver Marches, he could certainly say that Alustriel is indisposed every time a major threat reared its head, but eventually it starts to feel a little contrived that a band of 5th-level characters are running around stopping an orc horde laying siege to one of the seven signatories when Alustriel or one of her many powerful children or one her demigod sisters could just poof into their midst and wipe the threat out wholesale.

Only if you ignored Rule Zero. We played in the FR for years in our group and we never felt like we were the sideshow. We were the ones who saved the Realms time and time again. Elminster, Khelben etc... were all background characters. Heck, we even built a small city when we got to our epic levels.

If by Rule Zero you mean take a cafeteria approach that strips away enough of the realms so that it's now just a relaively generic setting, then okay. If you mean you just fixate on the hinterlands and don't make big ripples, then fine. But beyond that, you gotta explain to me what you mean. The powerful personages that shaped the realm were, to many, the setting's defining characterisitc. Much moreso than locales or cultures. That's likely where the great divide that separates the points-of-view. It's like trying to play a Dragonball Z RPG without Goku or Vegeta. The dominance of certain badasses is the point. It's a bit of a koan.

Every major faction in FR, good or ill, was headed by epic-level powers. Just as your average band of Star Wars heroes simply hasn't got the juice to go kill Vader, you'd have to be swimming at the deepest end of the pool to go topple the Churcch of Bane, Red Wizards, or what have you.

 

[oakbriar]

What I hate about 4e FR: no effort was made to provide a consolidated rundown of what happened to the pantheon(s) of the Realm. To find out what happened to Tyr (for the sake of the party's resident paladin) I had to read and read before I found a passing reference to his demise. Some gods are still just MIA.

Totally agree. Even if it couldn't make it in the Campaign setting, a Dragon article would have been nice.

Even a nice list of changes for countries and such would have been nice too. It doesn't seem to me like the campaign settings are going to get any more support, at least until Dark Sun is out (granted, there was that Winning Races: Valenar Elves, which is exactly the direction I hope that feature turns into).

A lot of the staples of old FR barely got a mention in the 4e books. Although I think it's really cool that the Harpers have become rather clandestine again, there still could have been more support for them (really surprised there was no PP, or even some sort of feat, yet a Dragon ED). I don't remember a whole lot about what happened to the seven sisters either. I think it may have said what's happened to each of them, but that's it.

The fact that it came out ages ago doesn't help much either. Absolutely no support for Primal characters. That's where I really think these new regular Dragon features should come in. Maybe that's just me working at a magazine everyday...