D&D General Forgotten Realms geographic changes.

[Parmandur]

I guess I am more the type that thinks the people in the world, the NPCs, are there just to facilitate play with the PCs. I have no use for the 1000s of ships or wagons going up and down the coast unless it affects the game and PCs. All of that just exists in theory until it needs to be something. That is how I play at least.

And you know what, for your game, totally fair.

My point was more about folks who were being stickers for exact story canon, but fine with handwaving millions of square miles without explanation. Handwavg who is the Open Lord of Wateedeep seems less jarring to me than a subtracting a metric Australia from the Sword Coast region.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

They are a DM tool and not something the PCs should rely on or take as gospel.

I have a player who continually gets on the map with a ruler, measuring mm and comparing it to the scale.
…and then complaining when I say "the journey takes four days" but he thinks it should have taken 2½ days at the party's travel pace.
He doesn't get that (1) distance on a map doesn't equal travel time (rivers, ravines, hills, terrain, etc, all affect travel), and (2) the maps aren't correct.

For my current game I've given the players five different maps, all of which are incorrect.

 

[R_J_K75]

For my current game I've given the players five different maps, all of which are incorrect.

Maps in the Realms are most likely few and far between, and the chances of the PCs actually getting ahold of one that is even semi-accurate is probably slim to none. Case in point, IIRC at the beginning of the Sword of the Dales adventure doesn't Lhaeo give the PC's a roughly hand drawn map? Just goes to show that people that have maps aren't going to give them up unless it's extremely necessary or profitable.

When I lay a map out on the table during a game its more for clarity for the players and myself rather than a reflection of what the PCs actually know.

 

[aco175]

For my current game I've given the players five different maps, all of which are incorrect.

I did this in one game long ago. It was just a crude map, but each PC had different information on their map. Took them a while to figure it out, but was satisfying once they did.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Well, but it's not an in-universe map. It's a source of truth for travel times. It makes. Aplenty big difference if it is 2000 or 3000 miles from Neverwinter to Baldur's Gate

My point was more about folks who were being stickers for exact story canon...

You responded to my post directly, but you seem to be addressing sticklers for setting canon, not me specifically. Given that, I'll try to frame my response in terms of setting canon (despite not being much of a stickler for setting canon, myself).

Here's my current best effort:

The DM's Sourcebook of the Realms in the first edition Forgotten Realms box set includes a section which "explains the mechanics for calculating the distances between specific locations using Realms maps." The section explicitly refers not just to maps in the box set, but also maps "in related sourcebooks and other products." The Running the Realms booklet in the second edition Forgotten Realms box set includes a similar section with similar language. In both cases, the mechanics require the use of a specific hex grid overlay. Maps without hex grid overlays "may be used for general discussion and explanation," but they aren't used by themselves to calculate travel times or distances.

If we accept the 1e and 2e rules for calculating distances on Realms maps as canon, there's no way to calculate official travel times and distances using the poster map from the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. The poster map has no hex grid so, per established canon, it is "for general discussion and explanation." It shouldn't be used to calculate travel times and distances without a hex grid overlay. However, no canonical overlay is compatible with the poster map's scale, and there is no official rule for rescaling overlays. To take distance measurements from the poster map, we have to perform one or more steps not included in the canonical rules for calculating distances on maps.

TL;DR: The Forgotten Realms box sets establish convoluted rules for calculating distances on maps. Those rules don't provide any official way to measure distances on the 3e poster map. Ergo, distances on the 3e map aren't canon.

If any stickler for setting canon is reading this post, how did I do?

 

[aco175]

You responded to my post directly, but you seem to be addressing sticklers for setting canon, not me specifically. Given that, I'll try to frame my response in terms of setting canon (despite not being much of a stickler for setting canon, myself).

Here's my current best effort:

The DM's Sourcebook of the Realms in the first edition Forgotten Realms box set includes a section which "explains the mechanics for calculating the distances between specific locations using Realms maps." The section explicitly refers not just to maps in the box set, but also maps "in related sourcebooks and other products." The Running the Realms booklet in the second edition Forgotten Realms box set includes a similar section with similar language. In both cases, the mechanics require the use of a specific hex grid overlay. Maps without hex grid overlays "may be used for general discussion and explanation," but they aren't used by themselves to calculate travel times or distances.

If we accept the 1e and 2e rules for calculating distances on Realms maps as canon, there's no way to calculate official travel times and distances using the poster map from the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. The poster map has no hex grid so, per established canon, it is "for general discussion and explanation." It shouldn't be used to calculate travel times and distances without a hex grid overlay. However, no canonical overlay is compatible with the poster map's scale, and there is no official rule for rescaling overlays. To take distance measurements from the poster map, we have to perform one or more steps not included in the canonical rules for calculating distances on maps.

TL;DR: The Forgotten Realms box sets establish convoluted rules for calculating distances on maps. Those rules don't provide any official way to measure distances on the 3e poster map. Ergo, distances on the 3e map aren't canon.

If any stickler for setting canon is reading this post, how did I do?

Should we accept the old maps from 1e/2e, or even 3e/4e for much if we are playing 5e? On one hand they are the maps for that world and should be rather accurate. The other hand would say that they are accurate for that edition. Would it be like comparing the old 1400s Fra Mauro map upthread(1e) to a map today (5e) of that region of Earth?

 

[Parmandur]

Should we accept the old maps from 1e/2e, or even 3e/4e for much if we are playing 5e? On one hand they are the maps for that world and should be rather accurate. The other hand would say that they are accurate for that edition. Would it be like comparing the old 1400s Fra Mauro map upthread(1e) to a map today (5e) of that region of Earth?

I'm very much of the opinion that canon is just a suggestion, and frankly not something neither TSR nor WotC have actually cultivated all that carefully or consistently. Whatever works for anyone's game...is good.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Should we accept the old maps from 1e/2e, or even 3e/4e for much if we are playing 5e? On one hand they are the maps for that world and should be rather accurate. The other hand would say that they are accurate for that edition. Would it be like comparing the old 1400s Fra Mauro map upthread(1e) to a map today (5e) of that region of Earth?

The 1e/2e maps are virtually the same as the 5e maps when it comes to actual physical geography, with some minor differences here and there caused by the passage of time and the various catastrophes. The political geography, on the other hand, does have some fairly major changes.

 

[R_J_K75]

I never realized how much the distances on the maps changed from 1E-5E or in which editions, nor did I really care. None of my players ever mentioned it either. Now I remember in 3E there was discussion that the map was condensed iirc but never really paid much attention, and obviously the 4E version was dramatically changed but again never noticed the change in distance. Besides glancing at the 5E map in the SCAG, I've never used it. I use the 3E map when I run FR campaigns now. I have the 4-piece map that came in Dragon Magazine on my game room wall and uploaded it to Roll20 and scaled it so I can use the measure tool. So those are my go tos when I need to measure distances, which at this point life's only getting shorter so I usually just guestimate it these days unless its pertinent to the game.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Should we accept the old maps from 1e/2e, or even 3e/4e for much if we are playing 5e? On one hand they are the maps for that world and should be rather accurate. The other hand would say that they are accurate for that edition. Would it be like comparing the old 1400s Fra Mauro map upthread(1e) to a map today (5e) of that region of Earth?

The first edition box set explicitly states the large-scale 1e/2e maps of Faerun are in-universe maps which might contain errors. I don't see any reason to assume later maps are any different. As far as I can tell, the only maps that are guaranteed to be accurate are the ones the DM has decided to use during an adventure you're playing.