D&D 5E (2014) [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[MG.0]

Only if you accept Planescape as canon. Which I do not. I do not care what Planescape says any more than what Eberron has to say about the disposition of souls.

Planescape can pretend to be part of FR all it wants but it has no part in mine.

The outer planes' role in the disposition of dead souls was established well before Planescape existed - back in 1st edition. That includes the Forgotten Realms. The Wall and all that other BS that tried to re-invent D&D cosmology came after 2nd Edition...when Wizards tried to rewrite the planes - badly.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Even if you did accept it as canon for your realms, and I'm not saying you should, there is nothing which says that the souls of the faithless would continue to the outer planes if the wall didn't exist. Just because that is how the rest of the multiverse works doesn't mean it's how the forgotten realms works. For all we know, faithless souls might end up cluttering up the fugue plane or become some form of undead if not bound to the wall.

It's pretty explicit that the gods basically get to decide what they do with the souls (not unilaterally, but they have the ability to). It was first made by a god. Apparently in the novels, the wall was torn down at one point and then put back up, by a god - the gods have the capability, apparently. What they apparently don't have is the desire. That's part of what makes this kind of especially cruel - they clearly could do otherwise, but they don't WANT to.

 

[JohnLynch]

It's pretty explicit that the gods basically get to decide what they do with the souls (not unilaterally, but they have the ability to). It was first made by a god. Apparently in the novels, the wall was torn down at one point and then put back up, by a god - the gods have the capability, apparently. What they apparently don't have is the desire. That's part of what makes this kind of especially cruel - they clearly could do otherwise, but they don't WANT to.

As much as I've enjoyed this thread (and I certainly have) what was the point? You certainly know (or at least now do) what the canon is for Forgotten Realms. 19 pages into the thread you have the same options now you did at the start:
1) Tweak the canon
2) Ignore the canon
3) Put up with the canon
4) play in a different campaign setting

Everyone is pretty much in agreement that these are the options available to a DM and many have voiced varying opinions from "I really don't like it and therefore change it" to "meh."

I'm just wondering if there's any more room for discussion on this topic or if we've talked ourselves out?

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

True, but the multiverse thing is now canon, and if we're discussing ''official'' lore, it has to be taken into account.

The concept of the Realms existing among other planes and realities beyond those commonly understood among Realms' inhabitants never went away--3E, despite online fan griping to the contrary--did not Remove the Realms from the multiverse.

3E worked to downplay those connections, in order to put the focus back on the Realms and not see it diluted with crap (if you'll pardon the expression) from other settings--including Planescape.

So yes, Planescape is out there, and what it has to offer should be considered when spinning up theories and ideas, but even under 5E the content of Planescape takes a back seat to the Realms; nothing in Planescape supersedes current Realmslore unless or until WotC revisits Planescape, and then only if WotC or one of its 3rd party writers is foolish enough to write a one size fits all rule for unclaimed souls.

(Can you tell I am not a fan of Planescape infringing on other settings?)

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm just wondering if there's any more room for discussion on this topic or if we've talked ourselves out?

Solving it has always been obvious. My point has always been to see what others were thinking and have a convo about it.

Personally, I'm still trying to find out if there's any real merit to the idea that FR, officially *has to* be like this for...some reason...in some canon...somewhere. Some actual cause for it. The closest I've gotten so far is this "People of Faerun went and killed themselves en masse when they realized there was no Wall," which might be the actual explanation but seems to fail the "Why?!" sniff test. So it looks like the arrow is pointing at "no," which keeps leading me to the idea that FR has in it some truly awful ideas that are kept around just because someone had them and wrote them into a book one day. Which raises the possibility that maybe someday they'll have a better idea and ditch the thing.

3E worked to downplay those connections, in order to put the focus back on the Realms and not see it diluted with crap (if you'll pardon the expression) from other settings--including Planescape.

I'm a fan of unconnected multiverses as a baseline, but if we're going to talk about how the Realms are actually presented, then they are presented with the rest of the multiverse out there as a potential.

But that's just the most obvious solution.

Even if Mount Celestia wasn't an alternative to suffering in a wall until oblivion takes you, there'd be nothing against, I dunno, the Good gods of the pantheon getting together and making a similar space, because they're all compassionate and they recognize that good people don't deserve to suffer. That they don't implies that they're OK with good people suffering, which makes them, you know, kind of not Good anymore.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This is madness. Planescape cannot infringe upon the other settings because it IS the settings.

It is known.

 

[Tyranthraxus]

I love the concept of the Wall. It just gives FR more Flavor.

 

[Hussar]

True, it depends on what you do in your game. However, as I've said before, if we talk about the ''official'' version, Toril *is* part of the Multiverse and of a Great Wheel-like cosmology.

Only in Planescape. Not in Forgotten Realms. PS was laid over top of existing Realms, not the other way around. If you, like me, completely ignore all Planescape material, then the idea that a soul goes to an alignment plane never existed in Forgotten Realms. In FR, the souls go to whatever realm of their patron god, regardless of their actual alignment. As was mentioned, a LG paladin of Sune goes to a CG plane for final disposition.

Think about it this way. Forget PS canon for a moment. In FR, a soul goes to whatever god's domain that soul favoured in life. The only function of souls in Forgotten Realms is to power the gods. Whether you're a free range farmer or run a chicken factory, at the end of the day, that chicken is still going to be eaten. Thus it is in FR. Anyone born in FR goes to whatever plane it's supposed to based on who they worshipped in life.

Those that refuse to believe are basically tainted meat. They don't actually do anything for the gods. So, if there was no Wall, those souls would just wander around the Fugue plane until such time as they were eaten by a demon or tempted by a devil. They don't go to an alignment plane because souls in FR don't do that, in the FR cosmology as presented. So, if the gods tear down the Wall, all they do is spawn more demons. Those souls don't go anywhere. In FR cosmology, there's nowhere else to go. You can't go to a god's domain since you denied the gods.

The only thing messing this up is the insistence that Planescape elements somehow apply to Forgotten Realms. That the afterlife presented in PS applies to all D&D settings. But, the settings themselves don't do this. That's why we have things like The Wall in Forgotten Realms. In Dragonlance (unless this was changed later), there aren't any devils because there aren't any Hells. Only the Abyss. Souls either go to the Abyss if they were evil or to some sort of Heaven (whose name I am blanking on right now) if they were good. There's no Limbo, no Hell, only two planes in Dragonlance. PS came along and TSR tried to go back and change all that, but, that's my point. None of the settings originally used that cosmology.

The only reason that the Wall is seen as a terrible evil is if you apply the PS cosmology where aligned planes await the dead. But, that directly contradicts Forgotten Realms canon where your afterlife is entirely dependent on WHO you worshipped, not your actual alignment.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Even if Mount Celestia wasn't an alternative to suffering in a wall until oblivion takes you, there'd be nothing against, I dunno, the Good gods of the pantheon getting together and making a similar space, because they're all compassionate and they recognize that good people don't deserve to suffer. That they don't implies that they're OK with good people suffering, which makes them, you know, kind of not Good anymore.

But the gods of good would be condemning themselves to oblivion if they did so. If the Faithless weren't punished, why would people, other than say clerics and paladins, actually worship the gods? This was one of the points in Crucible - with the Faithless assured of an afterlife based on their actions in life, fewer and fewer people were worshiping the gods and they were beginning to wane in power. This would result in fewer worshipers, which would result in less powerful deities, which, in a vicious circle, would result in even fewer worshipers, and so on. In a finite amount of time, the very gods which destroyed the Wall would be destroyed themselves. And it isn't just a selfish desire to continue to exist and a fear of oblivion which informs the actions of the gods of good here - if the very gods of good cease to exist, and their former worshipers rendered powerless, who then will work for good in the Realms? Could the setting even exist in such an atheist situation - just the deaths of a few gods have caused massive havoc; what would the deaths of all of them result in?

The Wall isn't just a necessary evil, it's a necessary evil that the gods, even the good deities, need in order to continue to exist.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Even if Mount Celestia wasn't an alternative to suffering in a wall until oblivion takes you, there'd be nothing against, I dunno, the Good gods of the pantheon getting together and making a similar space, because they're all compassionate and they recognize that good people don't deserve to suffer. That they don't implies that they're OK with good people suffering, which makes them, you know, kind of not Good anymore.

I can imagine a mortal in the Realms taking on that point of view, provided the mortal had any inkling of how things truly worked.

I could see a DM taking that perspective and changing things so the goodly gods do what you describe.

In terms of criticism of the divine arrangement in the Realms as written, I think what you're describing is an oversimplification. There is a divine order to things. The rules of reality.