D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Irennan]

because elves he has created elsewhere migrated to Toril.

Well, elves shouldn't be able to exist there, if their existence somewhere depended on that of their deity in the same place/sphere.

Between Cyric stopping being Lord of death and Kelemvor taking over no one could die in faerun

Oh, wasn't aware of that, as I didn't read the ToT books. I stand corrected.

But that's one more reason for me to ignore most of the ToT. It is just really weird, IMO

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which means they have to be able to receive prayers from anyone, anywhere who gives them to them and they can channel the power of level 9 spells to every one of their followers who are powerful enough to cast such things. They may not be omnipotent, but they are significantly more powerful than "powerful wizards".

Canonically, quite a few of the FR gods started off as mortals. Azuth literally ascended to godhood on the back of being a powerful wizard. The current Mystra was a peasant girl. Kelemvor was an adventurer until he took an arrow to the kneewas apparently in the right place at the right time.

The gods are clearly NOT necessary in a strict sense for the continued function of Toril. People were wizards before Azuth, spells were cast before Mystra, and people died before Kelemvor was there. Gods fall, ascend, die (even by mortal hands!), are born, are re-born, are re-born-again. Ao accepts applications for those seeking to become new gods.

And "granting spells to their followers anywhere in the multiverse" just implies that they are very powerful, not unique among divine beings. Ascended devil Asmodeus does that. Greyhawk ascended wizard Vecna does that. D&D-flavored Zeus does that. That's power, but it's not special, among the gods. All gods can do that, and Zeus and Asmodeus and Vecna don't need a Wall to enforce their appeal among the masses.

 

[Irennan]

But that's one more reason for me to ignore most of the ToT. It is just really weird, IMO

It also brings some other really weird stuff. For example, if luck ceases to exist with Tymora, what happens? Luck is only a human-made definition to indicate the possibility of good things (or bad) happening to people. If Tymora and Beshaba were to disappear, then luck and bad luck wouldn't exist and nothing bad or good would ever happen? If Helm stopped existing, would the concept of protection be deleted? Without Talos, nothing would be able to be destroyed ever, but since a lot of natural processes involve the ''destruction'' of something (even necessary to life, ''destroying'' nutrients to gain energy), the world would basically stop...

There's even more, considering Tyche, for example. Lets say we rolled a dice. The result isn't actually ''random'', it's just a motion that is completely defined by how the dice was thrown. If Tyche could make it so that all dies rolled 6, then she would also be able to control motion. And if she could do that with dies, she would be able to do it with anything that can affect a person in any way (since luck is defined by that). So Tyche would potentially have full control on everything, as long as that thing affects a person (or a being for which the definition of luck exists).

This would basically mean that Tyche, before Tymora/Beshaba, potentially had full control on absolutely everything that could affect a creature in any way, in every circumstance where an happening might have repercussions on a creature.

 

[Xvartslayer]

But when a being ascends to godhood he or she or it absorbs the portfolio of the existing god. It does not follow that if one god can be replaced by another there is no need for the god. Even if portfolios change over time, that is the universe, in its ineffable and mysterious way, maintaining cosmic balance.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Canonically, quite a few of the FR gods started off as mortals. Azuth literally ascended to godhood on the back of being a powerful wizard. The current Mystra was a peasant girl. Kelemvor was an adventurer until he took an arrow to the kneewas apparently in the right place at the right time.

All of those gods got their power from other gods. Either by killing them an inheriting their powers or taking a small portion of the power of an existing god. But they were all, essentially given a divine domain by Ao or one of the other gods. They may have been mortal once but now fundamental forces of the universe are controlled by them. I look at it as if the ability to control everything in the universe is the entire "divine pool" then that power is divided among all the gods that exist. If a god dies, it likely will cause problems for a short period of time as no one is in charge of that force anymore. But that force will be given to someone, either an existing god or someone new.

Just because they were mortals once doesn't make them any less gods now.

The gods are clearly NOT necessary in a strict sense for the continued function of Toril. People were wizards before Azuth, spells were cast before Mystra, and people died before Kelemvor was there. Gods fall, ascend, die (even by mortal hands!), are born, are re-born, are re-born-again. Ao accepts applications for those seeking to become new gods.

Someone needs to run the universe. The gods do that. Without them, Ao would have to run everything. It's evident he doesn't want to. But, you are incorrect, no one cast spells before Mystra since Mystra(or at lesat Mystryl before her) has existed since the beginning of the universe and her existence allows spells to work. The original Mystra died(during the time of troubles when she was made mortal) and was replaced by the mortal named Midnight because magic was starting to break down due to Mystryl's death. Ao offered her the position. After a while of attempting to get all of the followers of Mystryl to refer to her as Midnight and failing she just changed her name to Mystra to make things easier.

This is from the wiki entry for Mystryl:

Legend has it that at the dawn of time Lord Ao created the universe, and out of the early chaos came twin deities: Shar of the darkness and Selûne of the light. Together, these two beings created the spheres in the firmament, one of which was the world of Abeir-Toril and its spirit, Chauntea. Chauntea desired new and more abundant life for her world and asked the sisters for light and warmth in order to nurture it. In this, the two beings could not agree. Selûne eventually acted on her own and gave Toril a sun, which Shar immediately sought to put out, thus beginning the battle between light and darkness that raged for eons. At some point the Dark Goddess got the upper hand and doused many of Selûne's motes of light. In a desperate move, Selûne tore a piece of magical essence from herself and hurled it at her sister. When it hit, Shar also lost a portion of her essence and was cast into the void for centuries. From the blending of dark and light energies, Mystryl was born as a being of pure magic inextricably tied to the Weave. Both of the twins were diminished as a result, with the Moonmaiden's wound being more grave. However, Mystryl was ideologically closer to Selûne[9] and being created from both light and darkness, Mystryl (and later goddesses of magic) acted as a balancing force between Selûne and the Lady of Loss.

And "granting spells to their followers anywhere in the multiverse" just implies that they are very powerful, not unique among divine beings. Ascended devil Asmodeus does that. Greyhawk ascended wizard Vecna does that. D&D-flavored Zeus does that. That's power, but it's not special, among the gods. All gods can do that, and Zeus and Asmodeus and Vecna don't need a Wall to enforce their appeal among the masses.

Yes, but that's my point. They aren't just powerful wizards, they are gods. They don't need a wall to enforce their appeal among the masses...but it wouldn't hurt.

Either way, the way it was described to me is that gods in Greyhawk and other planes get their power from their forces. The god of Justice is powerful before Justice is such and important force. It doesn't matter how many people worship Heironeous as long as SOME people do, he'll continue to be a god. Whereas the FR deities were explicitly told by Ao that he was tired of them mistreating their followers(since they didn't care if anyone worshipped them or not...after all, they were GODS, they didn't grovel before mortals and ask for their worship, mortals should do that on their own simply because they are gods). Because they were mistreating their followers, their power would now be permanently linked to the number of people who worshiped them. Their control over the world would become less and less as their numbers dwindled. A greater god might be able to control death across the whole planet but, devoid of worshipers their power would dwindle to where they could only control the death of insects (or whatever). Their control over death would be handed to a different god that had more worshipers.

So because of that, the gods in the FR will go out of their way to try to convert people to their religions. Their followers are asked to go out and do things for people in order to make their religion sound better than others. And, in an effort to make things "fair" for the gods, since their power is based on their number of followers(and the entire system could break down due to the mortals refusing to worship any gods at all) that they'd punish anyone who didn't pick a side.

It certainly isn't a "nice" system for the mortals as they are kind of stuck between squabbling gods who are petty and jealous and some got to be gods purely by luck. But what it does do is that the gods actively try to help their followers. They compete to see who can give the best afterlives, they give their blessing to their clerics and their followers. They try to make life as great as possible because the stakes are really high if they don't.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But when a being ascends to godhood he or she or it absorbs the portfolio of the existing god. It does not follow that if one god can be replaced by another there is no need for the god. Even if portfolios change over time, that is the universe, in its ineffable and mysterious way, maintaining cosmic balance.

*A* god is needed in order to "maintain" the universe, not necessarily the god that exists now. "Chance" exists as a primal force but the reason the chance of something occurring stays the same no matter where you are is because there's a god of luck who keeps chance running smoothly. Otherwise, you might see random "regions" of bad or good luck(like anti-magic fields), you might see places where chance didn't exist, where if you rolled a dice it would always come up 3.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

There's even more, considering Tyche, for example. Lets say we rolled a dice. The result isn't actually ''random'', it's just a motion that is completely defined by how the dice was thrown. If Tyche could make it so that all dies rolled 6, then she would also be able to control motion. And if she could do that with dies, she would be able to do it with anything that can affect a person in any way (since luck is defined by that). So Tyche would potentially have full control on everything, as long as that thing affects a person (or a being for which the definition of luck exists).

This would basically mean that Tyche, before Tymora/Beshaba, potentially had full control on absolutely everything that could affect a creature in any way, in every circumstance where an happening might have repercussions on a creature.

That's too much thinking of metaphysical laws in terms of real life physics. In FR, the reason the die is random is because Tymora wishes it that way. Which is why some of her followers can roll higher more often than other people(as is evidenced by a number of class features, special abilities and the like tied to the bending of luck that refer to favor with the god of luck).

Tyche doesn't have the ability to "move dice around". Magic doesn't work like physics. but Tyche has the ability to determine that luck will work out in your favor. Then the dice rolls high on its own. You are trying to bring too much science into a world that runs off of metaphysics. How does Tyche make the die roll better? Luck. How does that work? I don't know, I'm not a god who controls luck. It's way too complicated and high level for mortals to understand. I just know it works and to deny that it works means becoming one of the faithless and stuck into a wall. I'm not into that.

 

[Mirtek]

But, you are incorrect, no one cast spells before Mystra since Mystra(or at lesat Mystryl before her) has existed since the beginning of the universe and her existence allows spells to work.

Actually that's not entirely correct. Mystra/Mystryl is the weave and without her there's no weave and all weave-based magic fails.

But the weave is essentially a glove between raw magic and mortals. Deities and certain very powerful beings can directly use raw magic without needing to soften if through the weave, just mortals are unable to do so (the greatest archmage would fry himself with a simple cangle lightening cantrip if he tapped directly into raw magic).

Mystra is also not as old as the universe. As the quote you posted yourself explained, she was created after at least Selune, Shar and Chauntea. Her creation was the last even in the first direct skirmish between Selune and Shar at the beginning of Toril ((ikely some other deities of conflict and death predate her as well, springing from the strife between Selune and Shar before the attack that created Mystryl was launched)

 

[I'm A Banana]

Someone needs to run the universe.

No, they don't. Other settings get along just fine without 'em. It's not like the person who invented platemail first needed a God of Platemail, or else the thing couldn't exist. There was darkness before there was a Goddess of Darkness, the concept of light before there was a sun, and supernatural goings-on before there was a god of magic (unless Selune somehow physically lit the heavens on fire, I guess?)

The gods do that. Without them, Ao would have to run everything.

Ao didn't deliberately create any gods, really, so I can't say that there's any evidence that he considers them all that essential.

They aren't just powerful wizards, they are gods.

This is sounding awfully tautological at this point. "Gods" in D&D-land grant spellcasting, but this doesn't mean they're somehow necessary for the continued function of the multiverse (in the default assumption, which FR shares). "Grants spells to people they like" could just be a particular magical power of particular magical entities. Certainly every powerful wizard grants spellcasting ability to people they like (apprenticeship) and every powerful fighter grants martial prowess to people they like (squires who train with them) and every powerful monk grants magical abilities to people they like (the master training the student). Sorcerer-kings in DS have the same capability, and some are called "gods," but this doesn't mean they're essential to the continued functioning of the setting.

And if they ARE essential to the continued functioning of the setting, that's a criteria that Ao put in place, and so he can be made to change his mind - as represented by the other worlds that exist in FR canon where the gods are not necessary for the continued functioning of the world that do just fine.

 

[Irennan]

That's too much thinking of metaphysical laws in terms of real life physics. In FR, the reason the die is random is because Tymora wishes it that way. Which is why some of her followers can roll higher more often than other people(as is evidenced by a number of class features, special abilities and the like tied to the bending of luck that refer to favor with the god of luck).

Tyche doesn't have the ability to "move dice around". Magic doesn't work like physics. but Tyche has the ability to determine that luck will work out in your favor. Then the dice rolls high on its own. You are trying to bring too much science into a world that runs off of metaphysics. How does Tyche make the die roll better? Luck. How does that work? I don't know, I'm not a god who controls luck. It's way too complicated and high level for mortals to understand. I just know it works and to deny that it works means becoming one of the faithless and stuck into a wall. I'm not into that.

In FR there's still physics tough (they're a bit off from our Physics, but they still exist). Things still follow laws. If you throw a dice, it is still moving according those laws, the possibility to change it implies the possibility to control its movement. If Tymora prevented a falling rock to hit someone on the head, she would also influence its movement.

Call luck what you want, even call it a force, but in those case, it would still affect movement. There's a point where you can't ignore that much ''common sense''.