Mean Eyed Cat
Explorer
The Human Target said:
That too!
Forgotten Realms
- Thread starter jdrakeh
- Start date
That too!
Nyeshet
First Post
I like the 3e's regional development, and I like the 1e's focus on the setting and its feel. I do not, however, like the ToT and several developments that occurred during it. I tend to use the current regional supliments with a grain of salt, presuming a landscape in which the time of troubles did not occur and moving forward into the present from there. I voted for (1), but (3) would have been a close second had I the option of two votes.
Now 3e just needs to finish fleshing out the various regions in core faerun - then expand into the hordelands, the glacier, kara tur, etc.
Now 3e just needs to finish fleshing out the various regions in core faerun - then expand into the hordelands, the glacier, kara tur, etc.
Sejs
First Post
Mean Eyed Cat and The Human Target pretty well summed up my feelings on the ToT.
It was ... how to put this ... bad. And dumb. And lame. And clumsy. It introduced bucketloads of idealogical issues (existance of an over-deity functionally neutering any authority the actual gods had in their given field; mortal divine ascention; gods as 'mortals, only bigger' - killable, shortsighted, and small-minded ; portfolio stealing; introduction of dead/wild magic; the magic job-list; petty over-deity; existance of a double-plus-super-over-deity, etc).
It was a blatant and ham-fisted. Hell, you could even tell the mortals that ascended to divinity were somebody's characters.
It was just all around bad. The entire experience felt like it was cooked up by a fourteen year old who thought it'd be 'kewl'.
It was ... how to put this ... bad. And dumb. And lame. And clumsy. It introduced bucketloads of idealogical issues (existance of an over-deity functionally neutering any authority the actual gods had in their given field; mortal divine ascention; gods as 'mortals, only bigger' - killable, shortsighted, and small-minded ; portfolio stealing; introduction of dead/wild magic; the magic job-list; petty over-deity; existance of a double-plus-super-over-deity, etc).
It was a blatant and ham-fisted. Hell, you could even tell the mortals that ascended to divinity were somebody's characters.
It was just all around bad. The entire experience felt like it was cooked up by a fourteen year old who thought it'd be 'kewl'.
Li Shenron
Legend
I only know 3ed FR, so I couldn't vote. Actually, I didn't even know that previous editions were set before the ToT 
Was 2ed actually set during the ToT? That doesn't seem fully playable...
What was different in the pantheon before the ToT? I think that Mystra was a different one and the current is an ex-mortal replacement, and maybe Cyric and Kelemvor were not deities before. What else?
Was 2ed actually set during the ToT? That doesn't seem fully playable...
What was different in the pantheon before the ToT? I think that Mystra was a different one and the current is an ex-mortal replacement, and maybe Cyric and Kelemvor were not deities before. What else?
Sammael
Adventurer
2nd edition was set after the ToT.
There were, however, three modules set during the ToT: Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep. They were HORRIBLE railroads, in which the PCs did nothing except observe the big bad NPCs do all the stuff. In fact there were notes for the DMs in those modules that stated "don't let the PCs kill NPC X, she's integral to the story" or "no matter what the PCs do, NPC Y escapes" or "NPC Z observes the PCs and knows all about them and there's nothing they can do about it."
Before the ToT, the three main gods of evil were Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. They were all presented in ToT as incompetent megalomaniacs because of TSR's "villains must lose" policies at the time. They got killed off in ToT and were replaced by an even bigger idiot of a deity - Cyric. Other gods were killed, such as Leira and Ibrandul, and Helm suffered a lot because - golly - he did his duty during the ToT and killed Mystra who tried to con her way past him, then tried to bully her way past him, and finally tried to spellsling her way past him.
The best story arc from ToT was the one about Waukeen being kidnapped by Graz'zt.
Kelemvor became a god after the ToT and during one of Cyric's incompetent debacles.
There were, however, three modules set during the ToT: Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep. They were HORRIBLE railroads, in which the PCs did nothing except observe the big bad NPCs do all the stuff. In fact there were notes for the DMs in those modules that stated "don't let the PCs kill NPC X, she's integral to the story" or "no matter what the PCs do, NPC Y escapes" or "NPC Z observes the PCs and knows all about them and there's nothing they can do about it."
Before the ToT, the three main gods of evil were Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. They were all presented in ToT as incompetent megalomaniacs because of TSR's "villains must lose" policies at the time. They got killed off in ToT and were replaced by an even bigger idiot of a deity - Cyric. Other gods were killed, such as Leira and Ibrandul, and Helm suffered a lot because - golly - he did his duty during the ToT and killed Mystra who tried to con her way past him, then tried to bully her way past him, and finally tried to spellsling her way past him.
The best story arc from ToT was the one about Waukeen being kidnapped by Graz'zt.
Kelemvor became a god after the ToT and during one of Cyric's incompetent debacles.
Thomas Percy
First Post
3ed is my favourite, because there is a lot of adventure hooks in FRCS and bad guys are stronger (don't mean stats).
StupidSmurf
First Post
I'll weigh in here as a big fan of Forgotten Realms, loving the detail and crunchy bits provided in 2nd Ed, but enjoying the 3.0/3.5 rules as the new "way things are run."
I also agree about the Time of Troubles...it sucked hard. Cyric has to be the most retarded villain to come along in quite a while. Adon the vain cleric of Sune was just annoying and useless. Kelemvor was angst-ridden, and Midnight was, well, also annoying!
The plot was jackhammered at us....most of the things stated in earlier posts as being wrong with the story line, I totally agree with... I read the trilogy, and a lot of it gave me that weird look on my face that symbolizes either "Huh? Double-you-tee-eff? This makes no sense!" or "Egad...I've just eaten a turd donut."
And yes, according to my sources at TSR at the time, the Time of Troubles was the plot device used to kick the Realms into Second Edition. Sort of like Crisis on Infinite Earths relaunched many DC titles, only not as well-handled (and Crisis had its problems too, believe me).
Then, to compound the sin of the Troubles, they come out with the Cyrinishad affair in Prince of Lies. Yes! Cyric's gonna arrange for huge-ass armies of dragons and giants to attack Zhentil Keep...THE CENTER OF HIS FAITH...in order to whip his followers into a frenzy of turning to him for their salvation. Oh yeah...THAT makes sense. When he was a mortal, did Cyric burn down an entire house in order to kill a single cockroach?
I'm delighted that Bane returned. Now THERE is an evil god. If Bane can be considered Satan in the Realms, I consider Cyric these days as Wile E Coyote. He's the also-ran who comes up with incredibly stupid schemes which inevitably blow up in his face and make him look stupider than he already is. Of course, in MY running of the Realms, his followers are still dangerous, because they're Chaotic Evil nutjobs imbued with the nutjob god's divine power.
Oh, I definitely incorporated the Time of Troubles in my campaign (because I like doing things by the book...it's a blessing and a curse), although, again like Crisis, it's one of those things that mysteriously becomes harder for the average person to remember ever having happened. And the mortals who ascended to godhood, I depict them as beings who for the most part have forgotten that they were ever whiny, angst-ridden, annoying turds running around the Realms engaging in pointless tasks and soap opera-style plots.
I also agree about the Time of Troubles...it sucked hard. Cyric has to be the most retarded villain to come along in quite a while. Adon the vain cleric of Sune was just annoying and useless. Kelemvor was angst-ridden, and Midnight was, well, also annoying!
The plot was jackhammered at us....most of the things stated in earlier posts as being wrong with the story line, I totally agree with... I read the trilogy, and a lot of it gave me that weird look on my face that symbolizes either "Huh? Double-you-tee-eff? This makes no sense!" or "Egad...I've just eaten a turd donut."
And yes, according to my sources at TSR at the time, the Time of Troubles was the plot device used to kick the Realms into Second Edition. Sort of like Crisis on Infinite Earths relaunched many DC titles, only not as well-handled (and Crisis had its problems too, believe me).
Then, to compound the sin of the Troubles, they come out with the Cyrinishad affair in Prince of Lies. Yes! Cyric's gonna arrange for huge-ass armies of dragons and giants to attack Zhentil Keep...THE CENTER OF HIS FAITH...in order to whip his followers into a frenzy of turning to him for their salvation. Oh yeah...THAT makes sense. When he was a mortal, did Cyric burn down an entire house in order to kill a single cockroach?
I'm delighted that Bane returned. Now THERE is an evil god. If Bane can be considered Satan in the Realms, I consider Cyric these days as Wile E Coyote. He's the also-ran who comes up with incredibly stupid schemes which inevitably blow up in his face and make him look stupider than he already is. Of course, in MY running of the Realms, his followers are still dangerous, because they're Chaotic Evil nutjobs imbued with the nutjob god's divine power.
Oh, I definitely incorporated the Time of Troubles in my campaign (because I like doing things by the book...it's a blessing and a curse), although, again like Crisis, it's one of those things that mysteriously becomes harder for the average person to remember ever having happened. And the mortals who ascended to godhood, I depict them as beings who for the most part have forgotten that they were ever whiny, angst-ridden, annoying turds running around the Realms engaging in pointless tasks and soap opera-style plots.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
Of the core books, the 1e boxed set is definitely my favorite. But I voted 2e because of the Volo's Guides. Those books did a lot to open up my campaigns and added a lot of depth.
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