Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[rounser]

Still not interested Colonel - I think worldbuilding on a macro scale is often a waste of time in many cases, because, IME, little of it gets applied to the actual game...except to serve to build atmosphere or verisimilitude that there's an empire over there doing something, and a paragraph or two serves me for that, or a published world such as FR. I don't like "road movie" style campaigning very much, I guess.

I can run a campaign to the level of detail I prefer on an A4 page map 10s of miles in size, or an island 40 miles in radius in a published campaign world - and never want for more landmass. But I'm not typical - you're right, the average DM appears to be a macro-level worldbuilder.....and in many cases, also in my experience, more thorough and focused a worldbuilder than an adventurebuilder or campaignbuilder for that matter!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

It was about a WHALE druid.

That's it? That's your main criteria for it being bad? We play a game about happy elves and grumpy dwarves in a land of magic and fairies, where evil wizards who are dead trouble the land, and a whale druid is eye-roll worthy?

So, which is geekier: Old Star Trek, or Next Generation Star Trek? Same kind of argument.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Still not interested Colonel - I think worldbuilding on a macro scale is often a waste of time in many cases, because, IME, little of it gets applied to the actual game...except to serve to build atmosphere or verisimilitude that there's an empire over there doing something, and a paragraph or two serves me for that, or a published world such as FR. I don't like "road movie" style campaigning very much, I guess.

I can run a campaign to the level of detail I prefer on an A4 page map 10s of miles in size, or an island 40 miles in radius in a published campaign world - and never want for more landmass. But I'm not typical - you're right, the average DM appears to be a worldbuilder.....and in many cases, also in my experience, more thorough and focused a worldbuilder than an adventurebuilder or campaignbuilder for that matter!

It really does provide for the small details, and for mechanics that would affect PCs all the time - for example, worlds can be aligned towards evil or good, and depending on how strongly, the PCs will feel the effects all the time. If you're at all familiar with TORG, the world laws and axioms are similar to what MotP contains.

 

[Olive]

Re: Re: DM Support

Stronghold BuildersGuidebook...too narrow of a focus...that's like saying that the 2E Complete Ninjas Handbook is great DM support..yeah I guess..If you REALLY like Ninjas..

of course, cos almost no campaigns have buildings in them...

 

[MerricB]

The feeling I'm getting from the nay-sayers here is that "DM support" is what they need for their individual campaign.

Forget what other DMs need. If it isn't useful for their campaign, it shouldn't have been printed.

I'm currently running a Greyhawk campaign that is based partly on ideas from Gygax's Gord the Rogue books. The most recent adventure took place on the Plane of Shadow, where the PCs were rescuing the demi-god Zuoken from the Scarlet Brotherhood, with the aid of the Catlord.

They're now talking about setting up strongholds for themselves.

What books would I have liked for this section of the campaign?
* Manual of the Planes - I have it, and was very useful indeed.
* Deities & Demigods - useful in working out the abilities of the deities involved.
* Epic Level Handbook - it has the Catlord in it? Dammit! I wanted that book for this!
* Stronghold Builder's Guide - apart from the PCs' future plans, just for setting up the strongholds of the bad guys would have been good.

There is a certain core to D&D and the way it is played. That involves dungeons, dragons, and PCs. That can be found in the three core rulebooks, funnily enough.

Everything after that will be off the core to some extent. Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes and Epic Level Handbook represent extensions of that core material that is common to many campaign.

Oriental Adventures is far enough aside that it only touches on this 'core' in a couple of places; FR & Greyhawk are much closer to the core.

Every DM needs to know how to run the game - thus the 3 core books. After that, the other books have limited appreciation.

* Some DMs never use a prepublished module.
* Some DMs never go to the planes.
* Some DMs have the gods as abstract beings.
* Some DMs don't use prestige classes.

Some DMs will probably not like any other product from WotC, because they prefer to do it themselves. Nothing wrong with that.

It would be far more constructive to explicitly detail what you would like to see in future WotC products, rather than bemoan the fact that the new ones aren't what you want.

Cheers!

 

[rounser]

Forget what other DMs need. If it isn't useful for their campaign, it shouldn't have been printed.

Utter nonsense. No one said that. Just because my tastes are not yours doesn't mean that your favourite products have no right to exist.

It would be far more constructive to explicitly detail what you would like to see in future WotC products, rather than bemoan the fact that the new ones aren't what you want.

Read back, and you'll find that I've done exactly that, earlier in this thread.

 

[Warchild]

Okay, here are some recent horrible DUNGEON adventures:
The 24th level sperm whale druid attacking a town.

So THATS where that last plot from the curent DM on rotation came from!!
I don't mind unique/wierd stuff. But a sperm whale Druid? No, sorry. As an entire group, we neatly sidestepped that plot hook, thank you. Some crap DON'T fly!!
He got the "what you talking bout, Willis!!!" look from us.

Though i think he has scarfed probably 3 or 4 plot/adventure from Dungeon. The other ones were pretty decent. A 60-80% success rate is pretty decent, i'd say.

 

[Warchild]

Manual of the Planes is about far more than the planes. That aspect of it can either be ignored, or, more usefully, used for examples of how various worlds can be created. The material it has helps provide actual in-game effects for narrative design choices. It's one of the most singularly useful books I've ever seen in regards to helping DMs design unique campaign worlds. Even better, the actual crunchy bits (as well as the fluff) provide tons of inspiration for even more radical customization of individual campaign worlds.

Besides the 3 core books, MotP is, in my opinion, the most important hardback done for D&D.

Testify, Colonel!! I couldn't agree more. I've had the book erich adventures that haven't had anything to do with the planes. On top of all the support it provides, it is a bonafide fun read!!!

 

[Chairman Aeon]

Okay, here are some recent horrible DUNGEON adventures:

The 24th level sperm whale druid attacking a town.

Uh, when did they bring out a D20 version of Blue Planet?

I.

 

[MerricB]

Very well - perhaps I've got it wrong.

Rounser, please define what you think DM support is.

(I bet we get differing views on it afterwards as well).

My take on it:

DM support is material that aids a DM run his game, whether by giving him new ideas, rules for new situations, or good advice as to what to do in difficult situations.


Not immediately related, but:

Classbooks are far more DM support than Player support, IMO. In an 'average' campaign - whatever that is, but assuming the model of 4 PCs, 1 DM, and 18 months - a player will have ONE character and have ONE Prestige class; and possibly a few feats from a single classbook.

The DM may well have dozens of NPCs with prestige classes from various Classbooks. Prestige classes as presented in the classbooks fit into two categories of DM support as I see it: new ideas, new rules.

I don't believe there is much Player Support that is not also DM Support; but that there is much DM Support that is not Player Support.

Cheers!