Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[reiella]

One question here now.

What is believed to be 'Crunchy' bits? Rules/Mechanics Content? Stuff like PrCs, magic items, races, feats, ECL?

And what is fluff? The history, the story, NPCs, maps?

Are rules for 'odd' habitations crunch or fluff? Stuff like the special traits of planes?

Just curious now, since I'm just at a loss of how the FRCS could be seen as high crunch.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, Anthony, it never occurred to me that you would think of yourself as a bean-counter, in the context of the story. I don't think of you as one. My impression was that it involved people from Hasbro. That's how I read it.

How about my SRD question above?

 

[The Sigil]

Is it wrong to ask your designers to put in more stuff that people want to buy? Is Wizards obligated to satisfy 40 people, or is it better when they satisfy 100 people? Should they discard those 60 people?

Taking a step back from that argument, I think it's interesting that the argument centered around crunch. There were a lot of game stats in Lords of Darkness... but I didn't think it was as good as FRCS, when you got right down to it. Silver Marches looks a) more similar to the bulk of FRCS and b) better written.

And here, even we fall into the same mindset that dooms the bean-counters.

The bean counters know that there are people out there who have appetites. If you give them something they want to eat, they pay you. If they pay you, you make money.

"Now," says the bean counter to himself, "should we discard those 60 people? After all 100 people will buy this, but only 40 will buy that. We would be foolish to ignore the 60 people that WOULDN'T buy that."

The problem is that the bean counter assumes there are only 100 people. It doesn't dawn on him that he can make more money satisfying the 140 appetites than he can satisfying 100. But that's because he thinks that everyone belongs in one of two market segments "those with appetites" and "those without." He doesn't realize that "those with appetites" includes the sub-segments "those with appetites for crunch" and "those with appetites for cream." So without realizing it, he forgets that there is a group he is not trying to reach. The elves, who are so busy taking care of the trees that they can't get on top of them to see the forest, don't have the right argument to begin with... they think that "those with appetites for crunch" is the entire market of "those with appetites" - they know that there must be some with appetites for cream, so they just segment the market further into "those with appetites for crunch and cream" and "those with appetites for just crunch."

Then he wonders why he's out of a job when a smart dwarf comes in - one who looks out from the top of his mountain over the forest and sees things. One who takes the time to talk to those with appetites and finds out what they like and realizes, "hey, there aren't two types of people with appetites, there are three - those with appetites for just crunch, those who like just cream, and those who like both!" In fact, he realizes it's not even that simple - some like lots of cream but still want some crunch, some want mostly crunch but still with a little cream. Finally he realizes, "I can't put out the same thing and expect everyone to like it - I need lots of different recipes!" So he gets all of his clansmen together and they create a bakery conglomerate, UTHER-DEE-TWENTY-PUBLISHERS.

The dwarf and his clan create all sorts of pastries - some with a little crunch, some with a lot of crunch. Some with cream, some without. They appeal to all sorts of groups. Now some of these pastries don't sell as well as others, but the dwarves aren't burdened by the unrealistic expectations of bean counters.

Pretty soon, the bean counters are out of a job and the dwarven conglomerate has the fans of crunch and cream happy. Some people like certain styles and mixes of crunch/cream, and so some dwarven pastries sell more than others, but on the whole, EVERYBODY can find something that they like. And since the dwarves are bound together not by a love of money but more by a love of crafting the pastries, they are able to ignore the bean counters when they tell the dwarves they SHOULD be making more money. And the dwarves - and those who had appetites - all lived happily ever after.

Afterword: After the success of their pastry line, the dwarves look to move into peanut butter - until they realize that peanut butter ALREADY offers both crunchy and creamy varieties because the peanut butter execs hired smarter bean counters.

--The Sigil

Seriously, I think the market is not 100 people and selling to 40 people neglects the "other 60." I think that the market looks more like "80 people who like it mostly crunchy" and "20 people who love both crunchy and creamy" and "20 people who prefer much creamy with a little crunchy" - IOW, it's closer to 120 people - instead of 100 - something the bean counters are missing because in choosing to go "all crunch" they miss the group that doesn't really like crunch

 

[ColonelHardisson]

One question here now.

What is believed to be 'Crunchy' bits? Rules/Mechanics Content? Stuff like PrCs, magic items, races, feats, ECL?

And what is fluff? The history, the story, NPCs, maps?

Are rules for 'odd' habitations crunch or fluff? Stuff like the special traits of planes?

Just curious now, since I'm just at a loss of how the FRCS could be seen as high crunch.

I don't think it would be considered high-crunch. I'd guess most would see it as more on the fluff side of the equation.

 

[Warchild]

Well, i don't subscribe to the "Evil" beancounter theory myself. If watching your margins makes you evil, Anthony, then all of us who watch our gaming budgits, or complain we can't afford everything we want.... are just as evil. So if your evil, you have plenty of company.

 

[Samnell]

Re: Bean counters

4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).

If that involves more books like Magic of Faerun, I'm a happy camper.

 

[Heap Thaumaturgist]

Re: Bean counters

Us evil bean counters or so evil that we work our asses off trying to make the Gnomes happy and keep the Elves alive (how is that for diabolical!)

AV

Kill the Bean Counters!! Flay their corpses! Raze their homes, sell their daughters!! ... oh ... wait.

Well, back in my post I did say I had no idea how the internal workings of WotC were set up.

Now, as I said, if each Elf Product has to meet a certain amount of profit, and a certain type of product can never make that profit, then yea, cut that product. Now, if the guys above you are having unrealistic expectation of profits, then a dialogue needs to be initiated with them to rework what they're looking for from the line. If looking for X Profit from -every- product means cutting out something that will lead to the continued viability of the line, that needs to be talked about too.

If all Fluff never sells enough to make a profit and doesn't add to profits later, then yea, don't produce all Fluff.

Just a tip of the hat to the Evil Bean Counters, they're people too.

Now, back to sacking their temples and defiling their altars.

--HT

 

[CRG]

Anthony...

No reflection on you personally. I think by now you must know that most of us are worse than a bunch of gossiping hens.

That said....

Business is not making the dough which the higher-ups want.

More dough is required.

Problem is, from the analogy being discussed, the only option for making the FR line sell better is to get rid of story and make more crunch.

Now, none of us live in a world of single-metrics. Why does a FR product sell? Is it just crunch vs non-crunch? No. There are probably a dozen major factors that go into it. However, if simplified to the level of crunch vs. non-crunch and as long as that is the topic then I have to think that (a) I don't agree with the apparrent and allegorical decision and (b) there may be no good way to make the ultimate bosses-of-bosses happy.

Since you're reading...are there any other thoughts you can share about what MAY be coming to make FR or other products sell better that are not simply crunch v non-crunch?

 

[JeffB]

<b>4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).
</b>

Anthony,

If in order to make the FR line sell better, WOTC strips away the setting info and instead put out books of "stats" with FR names so that non-FR fans will buy them to steal the crunchy stuff (and also alienate the Fans who supported it through the years) then perhaps evil is not the correct term, but it's pretty shameful, IMO.


FR has always been the most profitable D&D Campaign Setting, correct? (both 1/2/3E) Then are you saying FR is not profitable? or that it's not profitable enough to satisfy the Execs at Hasbro, but profitable enough to "exist" as WOTC line?

In either case... then sell it..let someone else do it...If people want splatbooks, then they have got WOTC's "Core" as well as several D20 companies to choose from....

Hey WOTC is a business..do what ya gotta do..I'm voting with my wallet...I buy almost nothing from WOTC proper these days....though I used to buy lots of WOTC stuff...3E Core, FR, WoT, SW, etc...I spend quite a bit with other D20 manufacturers, on old D&D product as well as non-D20 game stuff...WOTC has basically alienated me as it is with their business model..though I was a great supporter of the company pre-3E and up till about 2001 started up...sigh....

I realize you cannot please everyone and that business is business...but when you ("general you" not AV specifically) start disregarding the gamers who put you there in the first place (or in this case totally disregard brand identity) for bottom line profits, well.....hmm...it reminds me of someone named Williams....

 

[Balsamic Dragon]

Question for Anthony:

Are the general opinions on this board at all representative of what WOTC believes the average D&D consumer feels? Do you and other WOTC employees believe that our feedback is useful to your business?

If so, then despite the stupid metaphor and unkind labelling, rants like this are helpful because they get people riled up and those people then post their opinions on what they want to buy (or will not buy).

See, I get the sense that most of the people on this board (which is somewhat paradoxical), feel that their opinions are in the minority. That's probably because we are so used to being minority consumers in the first place (being gamers and all). So a lot of the fuss that gets stirred up from time to time is because we feel like we need to yell and scream so that we will be counted and our opinions will matter. Or maybe we sometimes feel like our opinions will never matter and we just want to yell and scream to relieve stress

We all know who wrote the initial rant and why and the fact that it was a rant. However, it points out two valuable pieces of information:

First, we, as D&D gamers, have an unprecidented amount of feedback and contact with the industry that supports our hobby.

Second, we have very little trust that this industry will listen to us and produce products that we like, despite proof time and again that they can and want to and will.

Our biggest fear is that we are being treated by WOTC like we are not important. And our biggest failing is that we wrongly assume that WOTC is stupid and doesn't care about its customers.

Balsamic Dragon