Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[JeffB]

I suppose I’m the opposite of the buying public. …I am a DM 100%of the time, and I don’t like a majority of crunch stuff in my RPG products. I’m not asking for Metaplots, Poor Novels, and hold me by the hand adventure hooks, but If I’m buying a CAMPAIGN SETTING supplement, damn If I want it full of rules…I want a finely crafted and interesting setting that allows me room to be creative …I pretty much ignore the first 100 pages of the 3E FRCS as it is…Genesai, Drow, and tiefling PC’s……blech..

On the other hand, I spend more than the average gamer does per month or year on RPG products: probably in the $100 plus range per month.

So WOTC could make a mint on me if they could get their heads straight.

I’ve bought every FR item except the DM screen. IMO, they are all very good and a better value than the core products I’ve owned and/or read; even the “crunchy” MAGofFaerun. LoD was good, but even as a “fluff” book it ‘s boring to read and rather uninspiring. Lot’s of good information, but presented in a very lackluster way. On the other hand I think Silver Marches compares quite favorably with the FRCS. IMO, The Savage Frontier (FR5) was one of, if not THE best FR books ever, and I would go so far to say one of the best D&D books ever. The Silver Marches is a worthy successor to FR5,AFAIC (much better than The North Boxed set). I picked it up on Friday and read it all weekend..


Mild rant

Personally, I don’t think that D&D is any better hands now than when it was in the mid-90’s with TSR. It’s just now that Hasbro wants huge sales numbers of few products, whereas TSR wanted huge numbers of more varied products. There’s been a marked change in the products and attitude of WOTC since it was sold to Hasbro. Some of the best 2E stuff was put out late in it’s life by WOTC. I find only a few things here and there in the 3E line that are as worthy; mainly the FRCS, and the MotP. And I don’t find this “pro-crunch” stance any kind of revelation; as a DM I’ve always felt that the vast majority of 2E AND 3E products (and 3rd party D20 materials) are geared towards players…more feats, skill applications, spells, PrClasses, blah, blah, blah…Dragon Magazine is just a monthly book of crunch and advertisements for more crunch (personally I hope the new company guts it, and brings it back to the great magazine it was 20 years ago)…Hell, just look at the blurbs on the back of every D20 or WOTC book’…there’s a little sentence about the gist of the book and then something in HUGE PRINT like

60 new feats including “Expeditious Nose Pick”, and “Improved Butt Wipe!

100 new Prclasses including the dread Hunter of the Snot, The Really Common Commoner, and the Kings Underwear Drawer Raider”…

40 New spells…ranging from “Mordenkainen’s Toothbrush” and “ Detect Fruit”, to the utterly deadly “ Inflict Splinters On Big Toes”

New Weapons like the “Keen, Holy, Ghost Touch, Flaming, Brownie Bane, Dire Nunchuks of Infinite Iron Rations”, and the “Gnome, Clip-Fed, Watercooled, Silenced, Selective Fire, 3-9X Scope equipped Repeating Hand-Ballista for your younger Cousin who believes the WWF and the A Team are realistic”

So many people complain about all this stuff that went on in 2E, and yet welcome it in 3E. Not me..I didn’t like it in 2E and I don’t like it now. Show me a BOOK OF TOOLS (not a book of completed “projects” which is what most companies produce) and I’ll buy it, but I don’t want cookie-cutter rulebooks. I’d rather have the fluff to give me the ideas, and create the crunch as needed rather than an overpriced book of crunch that I would use only a very small percentage of.

I think it’s a sad, sad thing if people who like the Realms are shafted because it’s turned into something that non-realms fans want it o become. It’s already happened to Greyhawk. Putting out a core book with the FR crunch stuff added into it’s content is fine by me, but don’t turn the Realms into core crunch books with just a FR logo. WOTC doesn’t get much money from me as it is…FR is the only line of stuff I buy from them now. I’ve given up on Dragon and Dungeon, Given up on SWD20, Given up on true GH products, , given up on the poor excuses for modules and splatbooks…I’ve passed on everything core since about the time the Psi-Handbook was released barring RttToEE, and MotP.

WOTC needs to look to KenzerCo and SSS to see how to do D&D campaign settings right…There’s plenty of crunch and plenty of fluff to appease either type of fan in Kalamar and Scarred Lands. As well they should look at the old ME campaign stuff from ICE, FASA’s Earthdawn, and Chaosium/Issaries Glorantha. Glorantha and ED came back from the dead and ME is about to be reincarnated as well. There’s a reason they have had such lasting appeal; They provided a good balance between rules and interesting setting. Settings that go one way or the other are doomed to failure: GH being the perfect example.. It’s released..people love it, but want more info..crunch and fluff…the fluff is put in Dragon mag..then Gary leaves, and the setting withers…it’s treated poorly, and what comes out is mostly crunch with little fluff (the bean counters trying to have their way)…it dies…the fans go crazy…it’s revived…this time (FTA) it’s mostly fluff…fans either hate or love it…several fluff supplements come out, and it dies again…the fans go crazy again....third times the charm..good amount of fluff and crunch…a GH revival or sorts comes about…then 3E turns it around to generic crunch, with virtually no fluff…and it’s almost dead again…the only thing sustaining it is LGH… which basically is playing in crunchy tournaments….that will die soon too….

Now look at FR….1E era…Good amount of Fluff and Crunch…even fans who later hated FR remember fondly the 1E FR products…

2E FR…mostly fluff…novels, supplements that read like novels…the crunch is munch…the setting withers among it’s fans…

3E,,,starts out fantastic…most fans like the amount of fluff AND crunch..then the first book is crunch…the second fluff..the third moostly crunch..and now w/ The SM… mostly fluff….and now WOTC wants ALL crunch….

WOTC needs to use it “hyper-balanced” outlook on 3e RULES for ALL D&D products…balanced between crunch and fluff…too much of one side splits the fan base…If they don’t figure that out, (and they haven’t ..look at the sale of Dragon and Dungeon magazines…) D&D will wither and be sold off again…(which honestly is probably the best thing that could happen now)

End mild rant…

Sigh…Didn’t mean to get so ranty…I’m just so disappointed with WOTC as a GAMING company anymore, that I had to vent…

 

[reiella]

Ironically enough, I have more crunchy bits from LoD than from MagF or MonF.

The FRCS had alot more fluff than Lords of Darkness (% wise). The set of Prestige Classes, the ECL framework, a handful of spells, and a smaller handful of magic items. Now compare that to 134 pages of Geography, 56 pages from Deities through History and Organizations. Will admit MagF and MonF were really alot of crunch.

Ironically enough though, I think the real reason there's such a difference between sales. LoD is an organization book and isn't presented as something easily adaptable to other settings (it really is, it isn't hard to change Zhentarium Skymage to Something not Zhentarium Skymage). Also it isn't something that is typically meant for 'players eyes', or at least has that perception.

 

[seankreynolds]

Sean seems to have forgotten the lessons of the past. Ryan Dancey has pointed out many times the laws of diminishing returns in regards to settings and settings books. I also concur with those who point out that supplements are crappy places to tell stories. Or to be more to the point, almost all the stories I've ever read in supplements tended to be crappy.

I haven't forgotten the lessons of the past. When I say "story" in the context of the FR D&D books, I don't mean 32 pages of "and then this guy did this thing 500 years ago, and as a result he was never heard from again and now his name is forgotten." I mean information on what's going on _now_ in the organizations, settlements, and countries of the world. How can you play in the _world_ of FR if you're not given any information on the _world_?

I know designers love to write fluffy pieces that show off their prose and original ideas, but I run D&D campaigns. Not fiction judging sessions.

I agree. 2E FR had a lot of stuff that best belonged in a novel, since it wasn't useful in a game. I'm all about game utility. A book with no game info shouldn't have the D&D logo on it. But a book with no FR info other than a few placeholder names shouldn't have the FR logo on it. (WotC already has a world full of placeholder names ... it's Greyhawk ... and it really isn't even used for that.)

I also run them in my own game world - mostly because the supplements for world settings are not consistent in meeting my wants and needs for my games. That means that all the non-crunchy bits might as well be blank space.

Yes, although most setting stuff can be adapted into a home campaign as well (anyone insert Freeport into their game?).

But a lot of the people who buy FR buy it because they want the non-crunchy bits that complement the crunchy bits. A prestige class about wizards with flying mounts is ok, but if you know that those wizards are the elite flying arm of the Zhentarim and are part of a larger organization with a lot of contacts and history, suddenly that prestige class is much less generic. If you're buying an FR book,. you don't want something generic, you want it FR.

I know SKR hung around rec.frp.dnd back in the day, and he was certainly there in the waning days of TSR, when it seemed like 90% of the people were clamoring for adventures and supplements that didn't try to force a story on them. We know how that story ended:
The elves got their way and D&D nearly vanished from the world.

"Forcing a story on someone" is not the same as "providing information on an established world." I'm in favor of the latter, against the former.

I'm sorry for those who might prefer to write such things, but I haven't been buying their products for decades, and most likely won't in the future. Give me Magic of Faerun or a MMII over Silver Marches any day.

But without the FR background, Monsters of Faerun and Magic of Faerun would be generic products and wouldn't have the inspiration and feel that they have now.

Is a James Bond movie really a James Bond movie if the only time you see James Bond is in the title?

 

[CRG]

Shadowrun

Just want to say...

Plenty of us buy books for the non-crunchy. The best example of this for me was Shadowrun (first edition, continuing on). Each of their books had this string of basically chat / message board commentary. Those books were EXCELLENT and a hoot. In those little snippets they dropped plot ideas, etc. Nothing concrete. Nothing set in stone. Plenty that could be adapted to any game (really). Plenty of place and people names.

And my opinion, I'm not likely to buy FR for the FR rules (as they are usually way out of balance with whatever actual setting in which I'm playing). Frankly, I'm a history-guy and that said I find the "history" books a much better read than any of the GD Drizzt novels. I realize that I'm an aberration, so be it. I'd rather read the Silver Marches than any story about a dual-wielding guy who has a scimitar named "Twinkle".

Personally, in the last release I thought the omission of Ivid the Undying was also a shame. I love that kind of crap, even if it is lacking on the hard crunch.

Frankly, do we REALLY need more feats and prestige classes and skills and spells? Aren't 6000 feats enough?

 

[Thanlis]

If, say, Silver Munches will generate more sales of Secret Product Z later down the road, a way to explain that to the Bean Counters needs to be created. If some of these books that have lower sales MUST be produced to keep interest in the hobby at a peak, THAT must be explained to the Bean Counters in a way they'll understand it. Their context doesn't include playing role playing games ... the more information you can condense and bring to their table, the better you'll be. If you can say: "Alright, Silver Munches is what we call a product of 'Interest Maintenance'. It will sell to a smaller demographic, but that demographic will in turn stimulate another market group to purchase Secret Product Z. Without Silver Munches, Secret Product Z will bring us an estimated _____ fewer beans. As you see, by producing Silver Munches we are, in fact, not only bringing in 7000 Beans but stimulating the market to bring an aditional 5000 Extra Beans from Secret Product Z."

That sort of language brings your context into the context of the Bean Counters. Now, end run, if Silver Munches isn't going to make a basic profit that should be expected from D&D Elf Product and isn't going to do anything down the line to stimulate the market for continued purchasing of later product ... then it really shouldn't be produced, no matter how much an elf really likes it.

This is so much a better explanation of the right approach than anything I wrote. It's about the kind of tactic I would use, but I couldn't have explained it half as well. Thank you.

 

[Nightfall]

Wouldn't you rather introduce them to my FR campaign where we replaced the wimpy 3E Tempus with Vashanka of Thieves World infamy?

Tyranny,
PTL

Nah. Vashanka is okay but I like Tempus' weapon of choice.

 

[Nightfall]

Shall we start taking bets on how much longer D&D will remain a Hasbro imprint? I say in two years, Clark (Necromancer Games) or Monte (Malhovoc) or Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) will be the new Geek-in-Chief of our favorite game. Just hypothesizing...

Mmm well no offense to my favorite guy, Clark, but I think they'll be a great nashing of teeth over that. Perhaps Chris..but who can say?

 

[Psion]

Hmmm...

I too only bought the said crunchy products. So obviously, the bean counters figures are reflective of my reality at least.

On one hand, I hate to see the big-business-ifying of D&D.

OTOH, I just think this is par for the course. Take a look at the recent "favorite setting poll". The favorite setting was Planescape (despite the rabid KoK fans' best efforts to rally their troops...)

Yet Planescape was dropped as a line a few years ago.

So now D&D has a boss that is even more concerned about the bottom line over quality. All I can say to these FR fans out there if it goes belly up is: welcome to the club, but you'll understand if I don't feel too bad for you.

Who knows. Maybe a wash-out brought on by short sighted micro-management would do the line some good. If all signs of spark and creativity are dropped from the line, and the market saturates on crunchiness, sales will go down for the line overall. And Hasborg might become ambivalent enough about the line that they would be willing to sell of the RPG properties to some rich gamer (yeah, probably that one... unless I win the lottery! ). And then, it can be brought back to life.

Or, it can die in disdain, as the smaller and more independant games find some new fad that pulls customers away from an increasingly unappealing line.

 

[Swack-Iron]

Storytelling is what novels are for. Storytelling is what short stories in dragon magazine are for. Storytelling is not what supplements are for. Supplements are for crunchy-bits. Supplements are not the best forum to tell stories. In fact, I think supplements are a rotten forum to tell stories.

And I will voice that opinion loudly, with my wallet. Others will as well.

Then I ask, have you actually looked at Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches? Neither of these books have much hard-core crunchiness. But neither of them have any stories in them, either. These are not prosaic White Wolf products. These are excellent fact-filled supplements with lots of useful Realms information in them. I repeat: no stories.

I realize, however, that you won't be buying them. Probably because you're not running a game set in the Realms. And that's OK! The content of these books is not useful to non-Realms DMs unless they want to file the serial numbers off the places and organizations for use in their own campaign settings.

I *am* running a game in the Realms, and I *need* books like Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches. I need to know detailed information about how the Church of Shar is organized, how the Zhentarim conduct business, and how the Cult of the Dragon gets any money. My players are tromping up the slopes of the Nether Mountains right now, and I already know that there will be a tangible change in the quality of the game I run between last session and the next session because I have Silver Marches.

I'm voting with my wallet, too. I don't need 30th level characters this month, I need weather tables for Sundabar. I skipped the Epic Level Handbook, and I bought Silver Marches. And I'm very much looking forward to more quality Forgotten Realms products.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

I'm just wondering how well Manual of the Planes sold (... I'm guessing it sold well).

Because if the WotC bean-counters consider that book to be "crunchy," they really have their heads up their donut cores.

I have yet to use the actual "crunchy" rules of that book. It was all fluff. Maybe it was re-hashed fluff, but it was still fluff!!!

Therefore, maybe sometimes, fluff does actually sell well. Granted, that may not apply directly to campaign-specific material like FR (afterall I didn't even buy the FRCS, but that was because of the broken rules; if it had more fluff, I would've been more likely to buy it, but I have no interest in broken rules).

I think all of this nonsense will probably clear the way for more sales of 3rd party campaign material. Which is probably good.