Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[seankreynolds]

Here the problem might be what is the added value of those NPC versus the NPC in the DMG.

A drow fighter is going to have a different selection of ability scores, feats, and gear compared to the "generic, raceless" fighter presented in the DMG.

 

[Desdichado]

I consider the Bean Counter "story" to be a warning. Part of our game is about to become extinct. If we let that happen, the rest will soon follow. It happened before, and it can happen again. And we cannot count on someone being there to pick it back up this time. We have been warned.

This doesn't make any sense. Either you're extinct or you're not. You don't go extinct over and over again.

RPGs never went extinct. D&D never went extinct. I'm not paying attention to anyone who wants to "warn" me that they will in the future, as I think that warnings not worth a... well, a hill of beans.

This thread has, ignoring the brief communism tangent, been way to alarmist for my tastes. I simply don't buy it. And for that matter, I'm not sure I should be concerned. I have enough crunch already, although I'm more likely to buy crunch than fluff if I see something that I really like (I want to buy the Sovereign Stone magic system, for example, but that's all I want from the Sovereign Stone Campaign setting at this point) while fluff I can do without. But I recognize that because I prefer to homebrew, that makes me different from some others that don't, and really need the fluff in order to play.

But if that's the case, that'll shake out too. If Silver Marches doesn't sell as well as hoped, and the next book is all crunch again, and everyone gets tired of crunch and it doesn't sell either, someone will finally figure out that the crunch-fluff dichotomy is really only one aspect of what causes a book to sell rather than the be-all end-all.

I'd just as soon keep buying d20 stuff I like from smaller companies, though. As long as 4e isn't right around the corner so we have to all go buy all this stuff again, or else not have a player base.

 

[jester47]

A drow fighter is going to have a different selection of ability scores, feats, and gear compared to the "generic, raceless" fighter presented in the DMG.

It has that in it? Well Sean, you just sold some books... I guess I need to stop shopping where I have to peruse the books standing up... Or I can abuse the WotC stores. Say I did not like it and then head over to the local independant game shop and buy it there. Still right now I am running on no job so Amazon discounts are getting my money...

Aaron.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Just putting in my two coppers . . .

I have written and re-written my posting a few times, trying to adequately state my opinion on the matter, and I keep failing. I'm really frustrated that once again I have been conned into investing in a game that seems to be dying a slow, corporation-induced, death. I really love the 3rd Edtion, but I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.

I hate the thought that Wizards may be heading in a similar direction. I don't think they will go under, but I do think they are slowly sacrificing the quality of their products for the "bottom line". I think the "bean-counters" are destined to win this whole contest, simply because the reality of the situation is that they call the shots. If they feel that "fluffy" FR books are not good sellers, then you can bet that "fluffy" FR books will die. For those of you who are not concerned about the "fluffy" stuff, though, I urge you to remember this: the Bean Counters That Be will not discriminate when the fluff is gone and all they have to look at is the crunch. When the fluff is gone, the crunch will become the low-man-on-the-totem-pole, so to speak, and will likely become the next vicitm.

It isn't a matter of getting "crunch vs. fluff" in our products. The ideal products have a good balance of both, tied to no specific worlds (anyone remember "Tomb of Horrors?") It is a matter of the bean counters thinking they can make whatever they want, and still make us give them our beans. That's right, I said it: "our" beans. We're the ones with the money, people. Wether we decide to give it to Hasbro/Wizards should depend on how willing they are to give us what we want, regardless of what percentage of us want it. The Crunch people and the Fluff people need to work together, so that we can determine what is published, not the Bean Masters, most of whom probably do not even play these games.

I have no interest in the Forgotten Realms at all, personally. But you know what? I really loved Planescape. I know it is still out there, supported by other web sites, but I still miss being able to walk into a local hobby store and see the newest "Planes of . . . " boxed set. I feel for the FR people, whose setting may very well be going the same direction. These things are happening because we let them.

The Silver Marches may well have some background that will inpire you to create a new feat, magic item, or prestige class of your own. Meanwhile, I'd say the Epic-Level Handbook is likely to have some incredible seeds for new campaing ideas. Always remember: The crunch is the framework for the fluff, and the fluff is the inspiration for much of the crunch. Neither will survive without the other.

I consider the Bean Counter "story" to be a warning. Part of our game is about to become extinct. If we let that happen, the rest will soon follow. It happened before, and it can happen again. And we cannot count on someone being there to pick it back up this time. We have been warned.

I couldn't choose exactly which portion of this post to quote, so I'll respond to it as a whole.

Let's assume the worst happens. Everytime someone poses such a scenario, they are seen as being Chicken Little - "The sky is falling!"

And then the sky falls. Repeat cycle.

Anyway, let's get back to the assumption. The worst happens. Let's say that Hasbro shuts down D&D and refuses to part with the D&D imprint. Not gonna happen, but just for the sake of discussion, let's entertain the notion.

It won't invalidate what we already have. 3e is already a complete game. You really could play for a long time with just the original 3 books. It's that flexible. So the crunch part is there, intact, usable, unassailable. The d20 publishers and users of the OGL will continue to add to that crunch for as long as they are able (but I'm concerned, a bit, at how slowly the SRD is added to now, and how we haven't heard much about it for a while...)

The fluff? Well, the fluff is there also. It's out there, spanning 3 editions and just as many decades (80s, 90s, 00s). There are boxed sets, novels, modules, computer games, etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum.

So if the worst happens, we're still set with material. Enough to last at least a lifetime of gaming.

 

[TiQuinn]

My problem for such products is a little different. I've been playing FR for so many years, there is little i haven't explored. Books like this trample over the things we have already done. Although Lords of Darkness give you a mechanics conversion for the bad guys of the realms, so it has a little more value to me than actually the Silver Marches (though i didn't/won't buy either), an area with which we have already touched many times ourselves (ie my group and players) in campaigns over the years. I really don't need the area expanded, because we have already done it and don't want to change what we have done over the years. Thats a symptom of a setting that has been around a long time. Although i ended up having the same problem with Scarred Lands. I had the Gazetteer long before the source books began coming out for it. So by the time they did, i had already created much of the setting myself out of necessity and wasn't interested in material that was likely to override what i had already done. Although no matter how much it differed from my own version, Hollowfaust was damn cool.
I don't know how common my situation is, though. Everyone in my group has 15-20+ years(one has 10, but it is a jam-packed 10 years) of gaming experience. Even setting rulebooks tend to get chopped up by whoever in the group is running at the time. I/we judge a book by its QUALITY of fluff (not mentioned much in this thread, but all fluff is not talented fluff) and ease of ajustibility, because after so long a period of gaming we already know what we are doing and/or looking for. We just look to add books that will help us along and provide the ocassional spark.

I had the exact same problem, Warchild, and it was part of what turned me off to Forgotten Realms. Eventually the campaign ran its course, but I recall that there was a lot of expectation to remain "true" to the sourcebooks. IMO, Canon kills.

 

[Blacksad]

We will look at how well this next book, The Sliver Munches, does. If it does better than Lords of Rumness, then we will look favorably upon these other Forgotten Rums books you want to do--Raisins of Fae Rum and ... I cannot read the title of this next 'regional book,' but it does not matter--and let you make them. If The Sliver Munches _doesn't_ do better than Lords of Rumness, we will make you change what the Forgotten Rums books are all about.

I just wanted to add an opinion:

while I believe that the next regional book will sell as much as Lords of Rumness and the Silver Munches.

I belive that Raisins of Fae Rum will sell as much as Magic of Fae Rum, it will contains all the planetouched races that apeared in Dragon and the dino-humanoid, doesn't it? and I think that it should have the ECL for all Forgotten Rums monster (if it doesn't that would be a good idea to put them in). I think that this would have appeal to any D&D gamer.

So I'm worried that the result of Silver Munches might affect the publication of this one, wich I think will have way better sales than all the other FR books on schedule.

 

[Tallow]

I just wanted to add an opinion:

while I believe that the next regional book will sell as much as Lords of Rumness and the Silver Munches.

I belive that Raisins of Fae Rum will sell as much as Magic of Fae Rum, it will contains all the planetouched races that apeared in Dragon and the dino-humanoid, doesn't it? and I think that it should have the ECL for all Forgotten Rums monster (if it doesn't that would be a good idea to put them in). I think that this would have appeal to any D&D gamer.

So I'm worried that the result of Silver Munches might affect the publication of this one, wich I think will have way better sales than all the other FR books on schedule.

I agree with you here 100% Blacksad. The point isn't about rehashing stuff that's already been done simply to add a few new prestige classes and feats and revising it for 3E. Its about detailing the stuff that makes it new. Instead of doing another Cormyr and Dalelands, why not do a FR supplement on PrC's around the heartlands? I would buy the Raisin's of Fae Rum simply because it details something I'd want to use and its new and fresh.

Andy Christian

 

[The Sigil]

Easy...

"Flunchy."

Someone, please come up with a better term.

How about, "they're Krispy Kremes?"



--The Sigil

 

[Nathanael]

IMHO, the point is about how much profit is enough profit.

The reason increasing profit needs to be made, as is evidenced by recent events, is not for the growth of the company, or even the stock held by the public. It is for the largess of the CEO and other company execs.

Seriously, you need to make serious cash to pay for executive compensation packages, defecit spending, lawyers to save their butts from Sexual Harassment/Equal Opportunity/Fair Trading violations and loans granted by one executive in the company to another so he can by a new 100 foot yacht, which he may or may not pay back.

This isn't about making a profit. The point is about the current business model needing to support the not so new corporate culture that consists of parasites that cannot be fired without sending the company into trouble. Read the latest issue of Forbes. The article on 'Bad Boys' will be enlightening, and also frightening, because you will get a glimpse of the real reason enough profit is never enough.

 

[DM_Fiery_Fist]

Personally I find that the fluff involved with the Forgotten Rums can be found in cookbooks, rather than game manuals. I want the game manuals to contain the crunchy bits I can use...Magic of Faerun was great. I will read a novel if I want history.

Just MHO

-- DM Fiery Fist