Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[JeffB]

I agree with you here 100% Blacksad. The point isn't about rehashing stuff that's already been done simply to add a few new prestige classes and feats and revising it for 3E. Its about detailing the stuff that makes it new. Instead of doing another Cormyr and Dalelands, why not do a FR supplement on PrC's around the heartlands? I would buy the Raisin's of Fae Rum simply because it details something I'd want to use and its new and fresh.

Andy Christian

See this is where the problem lies...I as a DM could care less about a book like this. PRClasses are way overdone as is. Most players will never need more than 1 maybe 2 for a PC. And DM's probably don't need more than a handful or two..in a fairly long running campaign...There are already tons of PrClass books...and nto to mention several dozen in all the FR products to date.

A Book of Races that is full of just stat/feats/PrClasses is no different than the core splatbooks...just FR names tacked on instead of GH ones tacked on

However, I won't begrudge anyone who DOES want that type of book....

But...

if there was cool non-rules info on the races, their organizations (with appropriate Prclasses if need be), etc. That kind of product satisfies both camps and proves useful to everyone..not entirely useful..but more useful over a broad range of customers...

which is precisely what WOTC has been doing with the FR line up till TSM, then I'll be happy to buy the stuff...

I'm not saying I hate crunch..I just don't want a whole damn book full of it...D20 is already oversaturated with crunchbooks and little fluff (comparitively)...How many campaign supplements ahve we seen comapred to race/monster stat/class/feat/skill/Prclass books so far? Yep there are some campaign settings, but not nearly like the amount of crunch books..


The fact is that while lots of people like crunch, and lots of people like cream..in a campaign setting supplement tied to a particular world..you have to have both...The core books and GH are a clearcut example of failure..not saleswise for the crunch lovers...but

A)how many of the people who bought them for crunch actually use the material in a GH campaign?

and

B) How many who love GH cream think that the splats are great GH books?

Very little from both camps....

And if the cream is taken out of the FR books, the same thing will happen...and sales will plummet...why buy a $30 pretty crunch book, when you can get the same amount of useful material in a $20 B&W one?

Ahh well..it's just a game...It doesn't really matter...but it makes me sad that 3E has already run it's course (and it has...D20 is another matter), and WOTC will finally live up to the "Wizards of the Cash"...moniker..as we start to see epic-level splatbooks, and the catalogs fill with re-hash...

 

[diaglo]

doesn't mean much to me. they will still produce the novels, which generate more income than the gaming supplements.

besides the Forgettable RUms books are overpriced

 

[Tallow]

Jeff,

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I want a Race book with fluff too. But getting all the ECL's and all the options and such for RACES would be good. I don't want just a crunchy race book, as I hate crunchy raisins.

Andy

 

[EvilPheemy]

*Notices Valterra posting to the thread*

Man, if Christina KNEW that you were hopping around the EN boards instead of working on the Fantasy Setting Search, after she worked her fingers to the bone processing the entries, she'd get doubly medieval on you.

Best lock yourself back in the office with a two-liter of Code Red before this goes much further.

Keep this up and people will start thinking you guys have free time up there in Renton.

*Can't take your eyes off these folks for a second!*

 

[TiQuinn]

Re: Forgotten Realms and Evil Overlords

Questions/Comments:

1) I play D&D once a week for about 4 to 5 hours, maximum. I have no idea what the average is, but I know my game does not cover every setting out there. Our game does include hopping about to several planes, and we don't meet every organization and NPC out there. Our campaigns tend to last 1 to 2 years before we start over with something else. So, take Manual of the Planes for instance.....right now, it means nothing to me. I've looked through it, and though it looks pretty good, it just doesn't have much application to where our campaign is at. But maybe.......................it'll get incorporated and used in a future campaign.....so given all of this, what is the average lifespan for these books and what gets recorded as a success in the accountants and managers books?

2) If WotC/Hasbro decides to hold onto the licenses for Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, how do the companies working with the OGL get to create setting specific info? If you're going to give up the wheel, then do it, and turn it over to people who are willing to write "fluff" material. Or do the "bean-counters" still think the name Elminster has some value that they can record in their books?

3) Heh, Ravenloft was worth about 2 to 3 books full of crunchy bits. So's Dark Sun. So's Planescape.

4) What happens when you run out of crunchy bits and start retreading old material?

 

[Wicht]

Ahh well..it's just a game...It doesn't really matter...but it makes me sad that 3E has already run it's course (and it has...D20 is another matter)

3e will only have run its course when everybody quits playing it. The realm books on the other hand will likely be over and done with long before 3e runs out of wind. But thats because, as someone else has already said, canon kills the setting. It would be better if they just froze the books in time and set down the law that any novels not include world changing events.

This is why I like Kalamar and this is the reason I have yet to buy any Faerun books except Monsters of Faerun.

 

[Sinistar]

I disagree with you in part Wicht. But not entirely. I think that the rules system runs its course far before the setting material does. 2e was dead as a game to put out new rules for long before they stopped printing FR material.

I am trying to think of a logical rules book left to be put out. I can think of minor books that would be best left to d20 (mass combat, equipment manuals) publishers. But I cannot think of a good solid need that 3E has left to print.

 

[Blacksad]

I'm not saying I hate crunch..I just don't want a whole damn book full of it...D20 is already oversaturated with crunchbooks and little fluff (comparitively)...How many campaign supplements ahve we seen comapred to race/monster stat/class/feat/skill/Prclass books so far? Yep there are some campaign settings, but not nearly like the amount of crunch books..

Are you sure of your memory?

199 books with the word campaign
218 with the word setting
402 with the word adventure

out of 805 products (search done with the search engine of d20 review).

And crunch isn't always feats and Prestige classes: you can have new magic school (wildspellcraft), brand new mechanics (Tournaments Fair & taverns or d20 super), alteration to existing system (psionic toolkit), etc...

To me Race of Fae Rum is something that no-other company than WotC can do (genasi, aasimar, etc... are WotC PI), has appeal to Planescape fan, Curently can only be done in the FR (there is no Genasi in greyhawk, and the dino-like races needs the FR logo), is player friendly, and somehow is "new" (there isn't many book with ECL for races or new PC races: monster by AEG is one of their one word book and many won't buy them, and I think that FFG has done one but I haven't heard many things on it).

 

[Imnop]

Originally posted and then edited by The Grumpy Celt


...Book of Vile Darkness (sheesh, Imnop)...

I can't help that your typo and signature reminded me of a Baldur's Gate quote.

I thought it would help set the tone for my previous post. See all those smilies I used in it. And my post was intended to try and bring the light/serious post ratio a little towards the light side.

And, as you can see many more serious posts have followed, so IMO, I didn't upset the balance at all.

I don't know if you had a chance to read Green Knight's post on page six before it was edited by Morrus but it is what prompted me to post. Not it's content but it's tone.

It should be easy to tell that I prefer to lurk and not post. And, I really would have hated if this thread had gone up in flames.

Don't miss "When Good Threads Go Bad" on the next Jerry Springer, where the correlation between total thread post count and chance of a thread going up in flames is explored.

 

[mkarol]

Crunch w/o fluff:

I have one word for crunch without fluff: Oozemaster.

It just seems to me that we are lamenting the inherent nature of RPG products. In the universe of potential buyers, each ‘supplement,’ has a smaller market than the previous; hence the definition of the word ‘supplement.’ However, there is a finite amount of generic crunchiness that can plausibly exist.

For example, a “Templar of AO” or some other mysterious epic PrC could be an exciting addition to the FR world where as the “Templar of the Overlord” or some generic description may seem so vague as to be ridiculous or out of place without some context.

Unfortunately, books about Mythology or Geography will only appeal to those who want to play _in_ that mythos or region; however, those places and gods can feed the crunchiness that can be exported to other settings.

On the other hand, people who really like the core magic system are not going to run out and purchase the Bigger, Badder, Book of Better Magic System.

The issue, as many have noted, is the reasonable expectation of unit sales and understanding the symbiosis of crunch and fluff that inspires the universe of potential buyers to continue buying supplement after supplement. Although our average buyer may skip ProductC or ProductD, s/he may be interested in ProductZ. I think, in my under-experienced-no-sales-data-gut feeling, that the vibrancy of a diverse and active product line inspires confidence in the entire line. While a given element may not sell as well as expected, the fact that exists bolsters sales of its supporting or foundational products.

And really; Oozemaster?