Forked - Flatfooted and the beginning of combat.

[Celebrim]

Ah ah ah. Right there, the bolded part, that's where you are wrong by the rules.

From the SRD:

If you ready an action, you cannot move.

Hmmm... I can see that as a valid interpretation of the SRD. You'll have to ask an expert in 3.5 whether the interpretation you make is born out by the explanatory text.

However, I have the 3.0 PH open before me, and page 134 below the heading 'Ready' I read:

"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one is begun. Readying is a standard action, so you can move as well."

In any event, how far you can move while taking a ready action is even less central to my point than whether you can take a readied action at all. If the bandits and the PC's move toward each other at but 5' per round, it doesn't substantially change the point of the example.

There is, of course, other huge problems with playing in "combat mode" all the time. For one, 5 people can't fit in a 10x10 room.

I have squeezing rules (granted, house rules rather than RAW) that let 5 people fight in a 10x10 room, if necessary. In fact, you can have 8 people fight in a 10x10 room (more than that if you limit yourself to grappling), but the results aren't pretty and I wouldn't recommend it. However, it would make an interesting tactical scenario to force a party to fight in such a small space.

Personally, I should hate to play in a game world that was hidebound to the RAW. Once again, my guiding philosophy of play is, "If it's reasonabe, then figure out a way to say, "Yes."

But, anyway, Celebrim, your example is flawed. You cannot ready an action and then move along, "holding" the readied action. A readied action precludes movement.

I don't claim to know all the rules perfectly and I'm only familiar enough with 3.5 to know that beyond fixing a couple of broken spells, it's a significantly less well thought out game than 3.0, but I'm pretty sure of what I'm reading here.

 

[catsclaw227]

With the natural result that every attack - even a meeting engagement - is in the form of an ambush with one side momentarily unprepared for the attack. Not to sterotype you too much, but I'd also guess you generally only roll initiative when the parties are within charging distance and that you've never had a battle start at a distance of 400' or 600' (or more). Moreover, I'd guess that most fights with NPC's are battles to the death, that there are fairly clearly lines drawn between who you fight and who you shouldn't, and that PC's rarely negotiate with characters 'that they should fight'. Not to sterotype your DM too much, but I bet if you tried he'd be startled and confused and eventually a fight would break out anyway. I say these things not with perfect certainty, but because I've seen the type on several occassions.

Well, usually I am the DM, and your stereotype of me (or my players) is incorrect. We've had many battles over the years that started at a distance. In these cases, the enemy was clear and the PCs stated that they were attacking. So we rolled initiative. And players/NPCs acted in their turn. But combat had already started. And not all fights are battles to the death. Many of our fights end with intelligent NPCs either running away, giving up by either failing morale and dropping weapons or because they were smart enough to know that it was better to live another day. Same for PCs.

There are also (more often than not) very blurry lines between whether a battle breaks out between NPCs and PCs. Unintelligent monsters? Yes, that is a clearer line. NPCs? Not so clear.

Many of our encounters (in 1e, 2e, 3.x, and 4e) that are supposed to be "combats" don't start or even end that way.

And yet we follow the rules regarding initiative and flatfootedness as I described upthread.

BTW -- How does initiative and/or flatfootedness have to do with whether some encounters end where both sides still have people standing?

I've been playing since 1978 and DMing since 1980. My experience with multiple editions have blessed me with an understanding of the subtleties surrounding how encounters are started and/or resolved. Your stereotype of me and my players is far off base.

 

[catsclaw227]

Hmmm... I can see that as a valid interpretation of the SRD. You'll have to ask an expert in 3.5 whether the interpretation you make is born out by the explanatory text.

However, I have the 3.0 PH open before me, and page 134 below the heading 'Ready' I read:

"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one is begun. Readying is a standard action, so you can move as well."

In any event, how far you can move while taking a ready action is even less central to my point than whether you can take a readied action at all. If the bandits and the PC's move toward each other at but 5' per round, it doesn't substantially change the point of the example.

In 3.5 they changed/clarified what ready means. So this goes back to my original question. Are you talking 3.0 rules or 3.5 rules?

I don't claim to know all the rules perfectly and I'm only familiar enough with 3.5 to know that beyond fixing a couple of broken spells, it's a significantly less well thought out game than 3.0, but I'm pretty sure of what I'm reading here.

Some would beg to differ that the 3.5 rules modifications were less well thought out than 3.0, but I suppose we are all entitled to our opinions. Personally, I liked the changes.

And the rules for Ready in 3.0 and 3.5 are different. Maybe that is the crux of the misunderstanding? You are reading with 3.0 rules and others are responding with 3.5 rules?

 

[Celebrim]

However, you and the DM are both wrong in that you are using the Ready an Action rule incorrectly. You can certainly be caught flat footed by something you are aware of.

Provided you haven't acted yet, then sure. You are still at that time unprepared.

There is absolutely no line in the definition of (the game term) Flat Footed which refers to awareness. You have added that line. It does not appear anywhere in the Flat Footed rules.

Now, it DOES appear in the surprise rules, but, that's a different story.

While I'm looking for my reference, would you mind telling me how you handle adding a third party to an existing combat when some members of that battle are unaware of the new arrivals?

 

[catsclaw227]

While I'm looking for my reference, would you mind telling me how you handle adding a third party to an existing combat when some members of that party are unaware of the new arrivals?

This is from memory (and 3.5 rules), but if third parties enter combat and some members aren't aware of their existance, the come in at the top of the round, and they are considered hidden to the members that aren't aware of them. In that case they can get in an action that may cause an unaware PC or NPC to lose their DEX bonus, but they aren't flat-footed. Now, if they take an action (like move without stealth or hiding) then they become known to all members of the combat encounter.

I am not sure if this is exact, because it is from memory, so maybe someone else can check for me. I don't have access to my books. I can't find the specific ruling at d20srd.org, but that may be due to poor search/browse foo.

EDIT: DMG pg 23-24 covers this. But none of their examples cover of some in the encounter are not aware of the newcomers. Only if the newcomers are aware or unaware of the existing combat.

 

[Celebrim]

Some would beg to differ that the 3.5 rules modifications were less well thought out than 3.0, but I suppose we are all entitled to our opinions. Personally, I liked the changes.

To each there own. I can't count or remember all the times someone explained some 3.5 rule to me and I said, "They did what?!?!?"

And the rules for Ready in 3.0 and 3.5 are different. Maybe that is the crux of the misunderstanding? You are reading with 3.0 rules and others are responding with 3.5 rules?

It's possible. Some of this recent stuff is rules minutia that I don't consider central to the discussion, where the basic rule is 'after you've taken an action, you aren't flatfooted'. Some of the confusion is do to my unfortunate tendancy to use 'flatfooted' as a synonym for 'denied your dexterity bonus', which it's not. Some of it is disagreement over practice that is within the DM's discrestion, like when it is appropriate to roll initiative, and we are disagreeing over the 'art' of DMing rather than the science of it. Some of it is an admittedly contriversial claim that I've made that I've decided to drop for the moment since the less contriversial stuff has proved more contriversial than I thought it would. Some of it is just people having habits they are comfortable with and a natural tendancy to distrust strange DMs.

 

[Celebrim]

I've been playing since 1978 and DMing since 1980.

You need say no more.

 

[catsclaw227]

You need say no more.

I will take this as a compliment and not sarcasm. Thank you for the deference. I am assuming that you're an experienced DM as well, and therefore much of the hubbub in this thread is about, as you stated, differences in the art of DMing and not as much in the science. I agree with you there, and some of the rules aren't terribly clear. I'd like to think that I use the RAW (unless I houserule something) as well as the RAI. As far as I am concerned the RAI is more important to me than RAW, but there are players and DMs that disagree.

I guess that's why there are so many different DMing and playing styles. It sure can be tough to start a new group or enter an existing one as a new player/DM, but as long as the intention of having good fun is the goal, then everyone can generally come to understandings about how a particular game rule will be interpreted if it's vague.

For what it's worth, I dig your Slaad project and have used major portions of it in my past 3.5 games.

(Now.... If you can do this for 4e slaadi, that would be cool too.)

 

[Woas]

Ah ah ah. Right there, the bolded part, that's where you are wrong by the rules.

If you ready an action, you cannot move.

To Ready an Action is a Special Initiative Action which "...change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order." and requires there to be a current initiative order to perform. The rest of the Ready rule explains how a character's initiative changes. You can't Ready an action outside of initiative order.

Second you can move with a Ready action. Read that last part of the rule again, "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round."

You can add a 5ft step to a Ready action (so, for example ready to cast a spell if someone approaches you and move 5ft away to cast unhampered) but if you otherwise moved any distance during the round you cannot add the 5ft step to the Ready action. So if you Ready an action, take a move action you cannot 5ft step as part of your Ready assuming it triggers. If you Ready an action, do not move at all and the Ready conditions are triggered you may resolve that an add a 5ft step with it.