FORKED - Game Fundamentals - Player Trust, Your GM, and Cake

What's the song with the lyric "In your onion head hat"?
That would be "Comfort Eagle," the title track of their 2001 album. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p99a6K81zqM"]Here's a link.[/ame]The lyric you asked about is at 1:23.

In situations like this, I always default to the advice of the Alpha Geek himself, Wil Wheaton: "Don't be a dick." Because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter how well-balanced or well-played the game in question is...once someone exhibits dickish behavior, it's not fun for anyone anymore.
 

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That's how it looks IMO:

1. There's no good game without trust between players (including the GM). No system will help here, as it is impossible to protect one from jerks and at the same time allow flexibility and freedom of choice. You either trust the people you play with or become a slave to the mechanics.
A trend of creating more restrictive, balanced and munchkin-proof game mechanics correlates with widening the player audience. It's an unspoken suggestion: "we made the game in such a way that you don't need to be afraid of some dick ruining your fun". One may hope that the game will play as described in the book no matter who sits on the other side of the table - at the cost of everyone being limited by the system.
It's worth noting that most indie games (that, by definition, aim for a small group of players) have mechanics that work great in game's designed style but easily fall prey to abuse. They assume the trust and build on it instead of assuming distrust and trying to work around it.
It's important to see that the trust-based design is not limited to a single design approach. A game may have a strong GM control - the players know it won't be used to mess with them in an unfun way. It may have a shared narration - the players are reasonable people, so the GM needs no tools for blocking their ideas. etc.

2. No system, no matter how well designed, will not make a game good if the players have widely divergent preferences, or when there are simply bad players. A good game will make these differences visible and help build a group that fits (maybe by a harsh but honest statement: "That's how I'm designed to be played. If you don't like it, I'm not for you - buy another game instead."). A bad game creates the illusion that everything is alright and then blows people in faces in the middle of a campaign.

3. If you have a group of people who trust each other and who have similar game preferences, you will have a fun play. But it is also a place where the game itself matters. If it fits the style the players prefer with its genre, setting and mechanics, it makes the play smoother and more satisfying. If it doesn't, players will find a way around it, ignoring or modifying what they don't like, but it will take time and effort.
 

I see some aspects of this, but I've experienced the opposite effect. The open rules of B/X and 1/2E required the players to trust the DM. Otherwise you'd get the DM vs. player problem. 3E came along and seemed to whisper malevolently at the players "don't trust the DM, he's cheating!" And players started to develop this sense that everything the DM did must be accomplished through the rules as written. They lost trust in the DM and started looking for trsut in the rules. YMMV of course.
 

I see some aspects of this, but I've experienced the opposite effect. The open rules of B/X and 1/2E required the players to trust the DM. Otherwise you'd get the DM vs. player problem. 3E came along and seemed to whisper malevolently at the players "don't trust the DM, he's cheating!" And players started to develop this sense that everything the DM did must be accomplished through the rules as written. They lost trust in the DM and started looking for trsut in the rules. YMMV of course.
YMMV, sure, but I think you might have hit the nail on the head. Or at least a glancing blow...
 

I see some aspects of this, but I've experienced the opposite effect. The open rules of B/X and 1/2E required the players to trust the DM. Otherwise you'd get the DM vs. player problem. 3E came along and seemed to whisper malevolently at the players "don't trust the DM, he's cheating!" And players started to develop this sense that everything the DM did must be accomplished through the rules as written. They lost trust in the DM and started looking for trsut in the rules. YMMV of course.
I would also agree though I think it was an unintended consequence, the driving force was I think a desire to systamatize everything using a common mechanic.
I do think that 4e was in part a reaction to this and also a desire to make DM'ing easier for new DMs.
I suspect that DMs are the resource limiter on growing the hobby and WoTC desire to encourage more DMs.
Also I apparently need to spread XP around more.
 

I see some aspects of this, but I've experienced the opposite effect. The open rules of B/X and 1/2E required the players to trust the DM. Otherwise you'd get the DM vs. player problem. 3E came along and seemed to whisper malevolently at the players "don't trust the DM, he's cheating!" And players started to develop this sense that everything the DM did must be accomplished through the rules as written. They lost trust in the DM and started looking for trsut in the rules. YMMV of course.

You've got it mostly right. For me, the lack of trust in the DM came way before 3e was announced. A couple of years of playing 2e showed me that DMs were not to be trusted.

At first it was easy to trust the DM. He told me what things happened and I trusted them to be right. Then I played in a group with 13 different players(who showed up randomly for games) most of which were also DMs. We started up a list of all the games we were playing(which, including non-D&D games amounted to nearly 30 games) and voted every week to see which one we'd play. Our average session length was 14 hours(in which we'd probably play 3 different D&D games since we'd vote again when we got bored) and then we started up 5 or 6 other D&D games during the week to keep us occupied between sessions.

It was because of that many different DMs and that much gaming that I realized that there was no consistency. One DM would say there was no buying of magic items in his game while another one gave free ones out every session. If you wanted to grab an enemy, one DM would make it an attack roll, another one would make it a dex check, another one would tell you it wasn't possible, another would make it a strength check with a penalty made up by him on the spot, and another one would make it a dex check but if you failed you were likely to take enough damage to kill you.

I was smart enough to do the math and realized that you needed to start gaming the DMs. Bob might not like grappling, so you didn't use it in his game because he's make it hard for you. James might believe that fire spreads at great speeds, so if you set anything on fire in his game, you could expect that before you had time to leave, the entire building you were in would be down on you. Sara might really like spellcasters and be willing to allow nearly any interesting plan you could come up with for a spell. So using a magic missile to cause an entire building to fall on an enemy killing them instantly would work in that game and was a better idea than using a fireball.

And that was just the DMs personality differences. That wasn't even counting the differences in their rules knowledge and their abilities to just make mistakes. One of our DMs didn't know that the enhancement bonus of weapons applied to both to hit and damage back in 2e. A player once bet her that was the rule and if he was right, he was allowed to get any magic item he wanted. He ended up with something stupidly powerful out of that bet.

So, yeah, I learned not to trust DMs. When all the articles came out introducing 3e they had a similar theme: We are going to have rules for all of those small things that didn't have rules for them in 2e. You won't have to make up rules for grappling, we'll give those to you. You won't have to decide exactly what effect that "cloud of acid gas" has on walls or doors, we'll have rules for that. My thought was "FINALLY! Now when I play 3 different games I won't have to remember 3 entirely different sets of rules."
 

I see some aspects of this, but I've experienced the opposite effect. The open rules of B/X and 1/2E required the players to trust the DM. Otherwise you'd get the DM vs. player problem. 3E came along and seemed to whisper malevolently at the players "don't trust the DM, he's cheating!" And players started to develop this sense that everything the DM did must be accomplished through the rules as written. They lost trust in the DM and started looking for trsut in the rules. YMMV of course.
That wasn't 3e, though: that was the internet.

Sharing power-gamer tricks, sharing experiences, building up intolerance for perceived power abuses (partly due to horror stories about actual abuses) -- this isn't stuff 3e did. It's stuff discussion forums (like this one) did.

Netting out the dissatisfaction against the increased level of general DM competence (based on the same kind of experience sharing), I'd expect things to be about level on average, but there will be many cases of a player whose expectations are no longer being met by his (non-level-raising) DM, and their complaints ring louder than the extra satisfied players whose DMs now exceed their expectations.

Cheers, -- N
 

That wasn't 3e, though: that was the internet.

I think this is true. As Majoru Oakheart amply documents above, pre-3e D&D varied widely in practice from DM to DM. 3e's standardization of lots of formerly loose rules indeed seems to be a response to that problem. The information exchange permitted by the internet, however, leveled the playing field much more than any sort of rules standardization did.

With that said, I'm not sure that I had a point, other than that I want a girl who can cut through red tape.
 

You've got it mostly right. For me, the lack of trust in the DM came way before 3e was announced. A couple of years of playing 2e showed me that DMs were not to be trusted.

<snip>

So, yeah, I learned not to trust DMs. When all the articles came out introducing 3e they had a similar theme: We are going to have rules for all of those small things that didn't have rules for them in 2e. You won't have to make up rules for grappling, we'll give those to you. You won't have to decide exactly what effect that "cloud of acid gas" has on walls or doors, we'll have rules for that. My thought was "FINALLY! Now when I play 3 different games I won't have to remember 3 entirely different sets of rules."

See, your story here, rather than convincing me that DMs can't be trusted, convinces me that, as a player, you can't be trusted. I'm not sure that's what you were going for...
 

I think this is true. As Majoru Oakheart amply documents above, pre-3e D&D varied widely in practice from DM to DM. 3e's standardization of lots of formerly loose rules indeed seems to be a response to that problem. The information exchange permitted by the internet, however, leveled the playing field much more than any sort of rules standardization did.

I'm not really sure I'd call loose rules a problem, but I do agree that 3e set out to standardize a lot more of the game. Skip Williams made comments to that effect in an interview early after 3e's release. It wasn't necessarily to fix a "problem" as much as it was to make it easier for players to predict what the consequences would be of the actions they wanted to take, their chances of success and so on.
 

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