IS Your GM Out To Get You (Serious)

[loverdrive]

I do believe there is a lot of improvement in the play process to be had with clear wincons and resource limits, both for the players and the GM.

GM should be out to get ya! Exploit every weakness, punish every blunder, that makes the game eleftryfing!

If she can't actively try to obliterate you, it she has to pull her punches and let foolishness slide — that's a design issue, rather than something commendable.

 

[Maxperson]

Is there any other kind unless the DM is actively seeking, planning to kill a PC? Characters die, it happens either because a player does something dumb, they get bad dice rolls, or they enter into a situation or combat that is above their abilities to survive. As a DM in certain circumstances if I inadvertently created an encounter that was way too hard for the players and I can come up with a logical reason to save a player's character I will, but I have never to my recollection ever set out to kill a player's character on purpose.

As the DM by nature of the game there's is always an element of DM vs the players. Not maliciously or out of spite but just because they are running everything else in the players world. They're supposed to challenge them, run their adversaries, even good and neutral NPCs. Take an NPC trying to hire the players to do a job, if the player's make too many demands, the NPC can just walk away. They aren't going to just roll over and give the player's whatever they want. The NPC is offering them "x" to do "y", take it or leave it, DM vs. the players in a manner of speaking.

As a DM it's my job to give the players exciting and challenging encounters, and make sure they have fun. I'm not just going to automatically say yes or no. I want encounters that the PCs can overcome but also have the chance to see them perish. I guess I'm impartial, I don't really care if they succeed or fail either way as long as I'm fair. If I was a player in a game with a killer DM, I'd quit, as I think most players would too.

I have deliberately caused PC deaths, but not because I was out to do it. One time the party was fighting ghouls and the druid went down to 0. His turn came up and he missed a death save. Literally every other PC hadn't had their turn yet, and one by one they forgot to heal him or attack the ghoul. When the ghoul's turn came up again, it did what ravenous for humanoid flesh ghouls do and continued to eat him, and two more failed death saves later we had a dead druid.

Those sorts of situations are rare, but if the circumstances call for an NPC/Monster to attack a downed PC and kill him, I'll make that call. Other times they leave the unconscious PC and go attack someone else. It all depends.

At no point, though, am I ever trying to take out a PC because that's what DMs do or in an adversarial manner.

 

[TheSword]

So interestingly in last nights session - the last in a 10 session delve into Undermountain using WFRP 4e - the part jokingly asked I would be TPKing them this week?

The party has just finished the Drow enclave on level 3. They had several critical wounds - the wizard a broken hip, the front line fighter some cracked ribs. Everyone was fatigued. The dwarf had almost died. They had no resolve left and no fortune left.

They were facing off against a Drider. The first attack from the Drider took half the warriors wounds away, poisoned him and entangled him. At that point we were convinced it was all over. Then by some freak chance the halfling scored two crits in a row - one blinded and stunned the creature and the next stunned it further, destroyed the other eye and left it helpless. They survived. But there was a strong feeling that they had narrowly escaped death. They took a boat to skullport and the first portal they could find back to the surface.

It’s one of the things I love about WFRP the fact that it could all go terrible wrong but sometimes will go terribly right. I don’t go easy on folks. But I do try and play it straight and give people meaningful decisions to make.

 

[Distracted DM]

So interestingly in last nights session - the last in a 10 session delve into Undermountain using WFRP 4e - the part jokingly asked I would be TPKing them this week?

The party has just finished the Drow enclave on level 3. They had several critical wounds - the wizard a broken hip, the front line fighter some cracked ribs. Everyone was fatigued. The dwarf had almost died. They had no resolve left and no fortune left.

They were facing off against a Drider. The first attack from the Drider took half the warriors wounds away, poisoned him and entangled him. At that point we were convinced it was all over. Then by some freak chance the halfling scored two crits in a row - one blinded and stunned the creature and the next stunned it further, destroyed the other eye and left it helpless. They survived. But there was a strong feeling that they had narrowly escaped death. They took a boat to skullport and the first portal they could find back to the surface.

It’s one of the things I love about WFRP the fact that it could all go terrible wrong but sometimes will go terribly right. I don’t go easy on folks. But I do try and play it straight and give people meaningful decisions to make.

Where do you get DND monsters for WHFRP? Do you make them or do you have some useful resource? And how did you land on using whfrp for DND adventures?

 

[aramis erak]

Where do you get DND monsters for WHFRP? Do you make them or do you have some useful resource? And how did you land on using whfrp for DND adventures?

Many people have done so. WFRP 1 had a fairly broad range of adversaries, and there was a WWIV-net fan book with more critters (sadly, the HD I had it on is long toasted). Plus, anything from WFB and WH40K were readily converted into WFRP 1e...
Here's the list in the corebook:

Humanoid	Animals and Monsters	Animals and Monsters	Animals and Monsters
Chaos Beastman Dwarf Elf Fimir Giant Gnome Goblin Halfling Hobgoblin Human Lizardman Mlnotaur Ogre Orc Orc, Black Orc, Half Skaven (Ratmen) Snotling Treeman Trogolodyte Troll Warrior of Chaos	Amoeba Amphisbaena Basilisk Bat,Giant Bat,Normal Bear Beetle, Giant Bloodsedge Boar Bog Octopus Carnivorous Snapper Cat, Wild Chameleoleach Chimera Dog, Domestic Dog, Hobhound Dog, War Doppelganger Dragon Dragon Turtle Eagle Fen Worm	Fungus & Mould • • Fluorspore • Purple Mould • RedMould • YellowMould Goldworm Griffon Harpy Herd Anlmal • • Bison • Elk Hippogriff Horse Hydra Jabberwock Lashworm Leech, Giant Manticore Owl, Giant Owl, Normal Pegasus Rat, Giant Rat, Normal Razorbill	Sand Clam Scorpion, Giant Small Anlmal • • Fox • Frog • Otter • Rabbit • Raven • Squirrel • Stoat Snake, Giant & Normal • • Rattler, Giant • Rock Serpent • Viper Spider, Giant Sunworm Swarm Unicom Warhorse Werecreature Wolf, Dire, Wolf, Great Wyvern Zoat
[Corporeal] Undead	Ethereal Undead	Elementals	Demons
Carrion Ghoul Liche Mummy Skeleton Vampire Zombie	Ghost Marshlight Spectre Wight Wraith	Air Earth Fire Water	Baalrukh Demon, Greater Demon, Lesser Demonic Servant Mabrothrax Mardagg Viydagg

You'll note (if you zoom in) it's a pretty good list, a lot of D&D BX overlap. no rust monsters, only one kind of dragon... D&D had adventures aplenty. The TSR ones are the most well known, but a lot of 3pp stuff was available. Since TSR got pissy about including MM stats in 3pp works, many stuck to the BX list and added a big bad or two... because EVERYTHING in the BX list was in the AD&D MM, too. (well, almost. I think there might be 1 or 2, such as "Adventuring Party")

 

[1QD]

Respectfully disagree. Life is full of consequences. Misjudging your parties abilities, pushing red buttons, taking on foes too great...yeah your fault. GM's actively trying to kill you seems ...weak? Imagine if in real life if it worked the same way. A roller coaster would kill every rider. Food would always be poisoned, and governments would always be....you get my point.

 

[TiQuinn]

I do believe there is a lot of improvement in the play process to be had with clear wincons and resource limits, both for the players and the GM.

GM should be out to get ya! Exploit every weakness, punish every blunder, that makes the game eleftryfing!

If she can't actively try to obliterate you, it she has to pull her punches and let foolishness slide — that's a design issue, rather than something commendable.

I feel like that’s basically the difference between a board game and a TTRPG. The GM of a TTRPG is not an antagonist, they are supposed to be neutral. If you make the GM another player trying to win, and has limited set movements and resources to ensure fairness, you’ve moved into an asymmetrical board game at that point.

 

[loverdrive]

I feel like that’s basically the difference between a board game and a TTRPG. The GM of a TTRPG is not an antagonist, they are supposed to be neutral. If you make the GM another player trying to win, and has limited set movements and resources to ensure fairness, you’ve moved into an asymmetrical board game at that point.

Sure. I don't mind part of the process being an asymmetrical board game.

If anything, "whole lot of talking and exploration, and half an hour bombastic combat encounter" seems to be pretty much the default way to structure a session — and I don't see why the bombastic combat encounter can't be balanced and imposing limits on the GM.

Everything else aside, as a GM, I want to experience the thrill of combat and scratch my brain too. Can't do that it I'm supposed to be "neutral".

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Everything else aside, as a GM, I want to experience the thrill of combat and scratch my brain too. Can't do that it I'm supposed to be "neutral".

This.

I just might add: the definition of "Neutral" could be widened to encapsulate being a fan of the PCs while, at the same time, playing the baddies true (i.e. giving them motivations and leaning on resources like The Monsters Know...) and letting the dice fall where they may.

 

[Agamon]

If I'm running a game with tactical combat, it's fair to say I have an advantage over the rest of my group (with one exception, possibly). So I run npcs to their typical intelligence. Roll random for mindless up to cheating by having super-intelligent npcs knowing things they normally wouldn't. And I roll in the open.

But, the two times there were tpks in my games the past dozen years, no one felt worse than me. I do literally cheer for the players and celebrate with them when they get a hard fought win. I'm not trying to win, that's weird, it's very easy to win when you control everything but the PCs. It's much more fun and challenging to make it look like I'm trying to win.